Various Religious Topics Discussed Here....

[TheShadowKnows]

Does the Bible predict a cashless society?

http://www.lamblion.com/

Dr. David Reagan and I recently had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Mark Hitchcock on the show Christ in Prophecy. Mark is a leading Bible prophecy expert, prolific author who has penned over 20 books on the end times, senior pastor of Faith Bible Church located in Oklahoma, and adjunct faculty member of the Dallas Theological Seminary. He is also a much in demand speaker at Bible prophecy conferences all over the nation.

 

Dr. Hitchcock was invited to answer questions based on his book Cashless: Bible Prophecy, Economic Chaos, and the Future Financial Order. It concerns the world presently teetering on financial chaos, global interdependency, and modern technology all converging in such a way that a cashless society and one-world economy are not only possible, but inevitable.

 

The Threshold of a Cashless Society

 

Dr. Hitchcock: I would like to say first of all that cashless is not a description of our bank accounts, if you copy. Some people read that and think, "Hey, that describes pretty well where I feel where I am right now!"

 

The idea for writing my book Cashless came as I was seeing all the things that are happening in our world today. As you know, Bible prophecy teachers have been saying really since the 1970's that a cashless society is coming. There have been some books written in the past on the topic, but there have been so many things happening in recent times about this, especially with advances in technology. I thought it would be great to kind of give an update on this economic movement.

 

While I was working on the book the financial tsunami in the last of Fall 2008 hit. That event put a lot of this whole movement towards globalism and economic cooperation between nations on fast forward. I was amazed that while working on the book all of these things happened and that they are really going to speed up the fulfillment of this prophecy concerning a cashless world society. Such a divine timing on my work feels like God's providence.

 

Nathan Jones: Where in the Bible does it say that one day the world will have a cashless society?

 

Dr. Hitchcock: An important point that I like to make is that the Bible never specifically says anywhere there is going to be a cashless society in the future. But, in Revelation 13 the Bible says that this "beast coming out of the sea" whom we call "Antichrist" — this final world ruler — when he comes on the scene is going to have a man who is kind of his second-in-command and propaganda expert. This "beast coming out of the earth," I call him the "World Economic Czar." In the Bible he is also called the "False Prophet." He is going to set up a system where everyone in the world is going to have to worship the Antichrist and take his mark in order to be able to buy and sell.

 

Now, with cash people would not be able to control the world economy, because as long as there is cash people can operate outside of the system by slipping some money under the table. For there to be an iron-clad system where you cannot buy or sell — that absolute supply and demand are controlled — it is going to have to be a cashless society.

 

So, Revelation 13 is where I find the cashless society alluded to in the Bible, and many other prophecy teachers have agreed that's what Revelation 13 means.

 

Dr. Reagan: As far back as I have intensely studied Bible prophecy, which would go back to the late 19th Century (not that I was alive then, but I read books from back then), I have found people saying there is going to be a cashless society in the future. This is not some new prophecy, nor is it some new interpretation. It's not something that you are just reading into the news. This is something that people have been saying long before you came on the scene.

 

Dr. Hitchcock: That's right. Edward Bellamy wrote his book Looking Backward in the late 1800's. In 1887, Bellamy was a utopian writer who predicted credit cards as well as a cashless society. This idea, then, has been part of the secular fabric of our society.

 

Bible prophecy teachers have also seen in the Bible that someone is going to control the world one day. In an economy where one cannot buy or sell, those in power would then have absolute control of world finances, and thereby every single person. This cannot occur without the society being totally cashless.

 

Dr. Reagan: Revelation 13:16-17 goes, "He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name." And so, if one can't buy and sell unless they have this mark, then every transaction in the world has to be monitored, right?

 

Dr. Hitchcock: That's right. Society will have to be cashless using some type of electronic system for that to be true.

 

It is amazing that the Bible predicted a cashless society back in the times of wood, stone and togas! This to me is another verifiable point and confirmation that the Bible is the Word of God and that it is true.

 

[camuchs]

I hope not, I like cash. It's almost as good as money.

 

JV - you would have to sell your soul for Cool whip! :rofl:

[TheShadowKnows]

I hope not, I like cash. It's almost as good as money. I hear ya :D , but the whole cashless society thing is the next big thing (not for me) and below are a couple links to prove my point.

 

JV - you would have to sell your soul for Cool whip! :rofl:

Cool Whip is good but it aint that good :bye:

 

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38038

 

Paying for drinks with wave

of the hand

Club-goers in Spain get implanted chips for ID, payment purposes

 

 

<H1 id=articlehed>http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2003/11/61357

 

When Cash Is Only Skin Deep</H1>Julia Scheeres 11.25.03 # # The VeriChip has a unique number for the implanted person. The actual chip is about the size of a grain of rice. A Florida company has announced plans to develop a service that would allow consumers to pay for merchandise using microchips implanted under their skin.

 

 

http://www.ridingthebeast.com/articles/verichip-implant/Verichip and the Mark of the Beast

 

[camuchs]

I was not doubting you. Just taking an op to rib you about CoolWhip. I'm not even getting a chip put in my dog. Many don't remember Hillary talking about the national ID/medical info "chip" in the Clinton healthcare disscussions about 15 or so years ago. I don't believe we can be "tricked" into taking the Mark. Ever read the Left Behind series?

[TheShadowKnows]

I was not doubting you. Just taking an op to rib you about CoolWhip I thought that was pretty funny but what made it even more funny was that I was eating cool whip at the time.. I'm not even getting a chip put in my dog. Many don't remember Hillary talking about the national ID/medical info "chip" in the Clinton healthcare disscussions about 15 or so years ago. I don't believe we can be "tricked" into taking the Mark. Ever read the Left Behind series? Yes, I have except for the last book Glouriouse Appearing or something like that.

[RETIREDFAN1]

...I won't waste your time, AGAIN, going over all the denominational error in regards to the Book of Revelations..... :banghead: :saint:

[blackflag79]

This all goes on after the Rapture.......so I won't have to worry about it.... :thumbsup: :saint:

[DaveTV1]

There already has been a cashless system, it was called bartering. I still don't buy into the Rapture business. I can list numerous scriptures that refute that belief. There will still be righteous people that will be on the earth to fight against idiot and his minions. Even after the millenium, idiot will be loosed for a season to tempt again and try to sway people. I still can't explain why God gives idiot so many breaks.

[TheShadowKnows]

There already has been a cashless system, it was called bartering. I still don't buy into the Rapture business. I can list numerous scriptures that refute that belief. please do There will still be righteous people that will be on the earth to fight against idiot and his minions. yes those that were left behind but still come to faith in Christ Even after the millenium, idiot will be loosed for a season to tempt again and try to sway people. I still can't explain why God gives idiot so many breaks.

[RETIREDFAN1]

This item is available on the Apologetics Press Web site at: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2260

 

AP Content :: Scripturally Speaking

 

Repudiation of the "Rapture"

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

 

The average American is aware of the periodic claim that “the end is near.” When Y2K was approaching, outcries of doom, global disruption, and Armageddon were widespread. Hal Lindsey achieved nationwide attention over thirty years ago with his national bestseller The Late Great Planet Earth (1970). A more recent repackaging of the dispensational brand of premillennialism is the popular Left Behind book series (see “The Official…”). Every so often, a religious figure captures national attention, announcing the impending return of Jesus—even to the point of setting a date—only to fade into the anonymity from which he arose when his claim falls flat, but having achieved his “fifteen minutes of fame” (see Whisenant and Brewer, 1989). The sensationalism sells well and tweaks the curiosity of large numbers of people. Incredibly, this pattern has been repeating itself literally for centuries!

 

Such is the case with the alleged “Rapture.” It comes from the Latin word “rapere,” which means “to seize, snatch out, take away.” Dispensationalists apply this word to the idea that Christ will come suddenly and secretly in the air to snatch away from the Earth the living saints and the resurrected bodies of those saints already deceased. This rapture is supposed to occur just prior to the seven-year Tribulation period, which, in turn, will be followed by the Millennium.

 

Proponents claim that the Rapture will be secretive. We are told that families will be shocked by the strange disappearance of a mother, father, or child. Driverless cars will collide in the streets (thus the bumper sticker: “In case of rapture, this vehicle will be unmanned”). A man and wife will be in bed; she hears a noise, turns her head, and finds him gone. Planes will crash with no pilots found. These sensational and dramatic examples illustrate the view that the Rapture will be an invisible coming of the Lord for His saints, leaving visible results of chaos and confusion among the remaining unbelievers.

 

In reality, the word “rapture” is not found in the Bible, though it is claimed to be the Latin equivalent of harpadzo translated “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV). Lindsey admitted, “t is not found in the Bible” (1970, p. 126), and noted that the word “translation” is just as suitable. Yet the word “translation” does occur in the New Testament. Paul referred to the fact that God “has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love” (Colossians 1:13, emp. added). So when an unbeliever obeys the Gospel, receives forgiveness of sins, and is added to the church of Christ, he is taken out of the world and transferred to Christ’s kingdom. This use of the term is certainly a far cry from the idea that it refers to Christians being raptured from the physical Earth to meet Jesus in the air.

 

The New Testament uses three terms to refer to Christ’s return. First, parousia is translated “coming, presence, or advent.” Second, epiphaneia is translated “appearing, manifestation, or brightness.” Third, apokalupsis is translated “revelation.” Dispensationalism holds that parousia (“coming”) refers to the “Rapture” that occurs seven years before the epiphaneia (“appearing”) or apokalupsis (“revelation).” Accordingly, at the “Rapture,” it is claimed that Jesus will come for the church only, while at the “Revelation,” Jesus will return with the church, and put an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.”

 

The primary passage used to support the idea of a “rapture” is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. But this passage was not actually given to deal with the return of Christ. Its purpose was twofold. First, it was designed to reassure Christians that their deceased loved ones would be able to share in the Lord’s return. Second, it informed Christians that those who are still living when Christ returns will have no precedence or advantage over those who have already died. This dual function of the text constitutes a very different emphasis from the one imposed upon it by dispensationalists.

 

The dispensational distinctions made between the three New Testament terms that refer to Christ’s return are simply untenable (see Boettner, 1957, pp. 163-164). For example, dispensationalists assert that the “coming” (parousia) in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 refers to the “Rapture.” Yet the same word is used in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 to speak of Jesus coming “with” His saints, thereby coinciding with the dispensational concept of the “Appearing” or “Revelation” seven years after the “Rapture.” Dispensationalists apply 2 Thessalonians 2:8 to the “Antichrist,” and therefore must understand this as a reference to the “Appearing” seven years after the “Rapture.” Yet the verse uses the expression “the manifestation (i.e., “brightness”—epiphaneia) of His coming (parousia).” Thus the term “coming” is used in the New Testament to refer to both dispensational concepts of the “Rapture” and the “Appearing,” and the two expressions are, in fact, combined in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 to refer to one and the same event.

 

The term “Revelation” (apokalupsis) in 1 Corinthians 1:7 is descriptive of what the dispensationalists call the “Rapture,” since Christians await it. But in 2 Thessalonians 1:7, it clearly refers to the “Appearing.” The term “Appearing” (epiphaneia) is used in 1 Timothy 6:14 as the event that terminates Christian activity on Earth, and thus fits the “Rapture” concept. But in 2 Timothy 4:1,8, the references to judgment fit the “Appearing.”

 

In view of these considerations, the sincere Bible student is forced to conclude that the three words relating to Christ’s return in the New Testament are used synonymously and interchangeably. The New Testament simply makes no distinction between the coming of the Lord for His saints (“Rapture”) and the coming of the Lord with His saints (“Appearing” or “Revelation”). The dispensational dichotomy is in direct conflict with New Testament terminology.

 

Additionally, if Christians are to be removed seven years before the “Revelation” or “Coming” of Christ, then no passage should speak of Christians remaining on Earth until the “Revelation.” However, many passages do just that (see Boettner, pp. 165-166). For example, in Titus 2:13, Paul referred to the “blessed hope” and the “appearing” as one and the same event, i.e., Christ’s coming. In the original language, the two substantives, “hope” and “appearing” (epiphaneia) are closely linked by the common article. They are not two separate events, as if to be read: “Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing.” Rather, the text is saying, “looking for the blessed hope and appearing.” The one explains the other. The “blessed hope” of Christians is “the glorious appearing” of Christ. Other examples would be 1 Peter 1:13 and 4:13, where the grace on which the Christian is to set his hope is to be received at the “revelation” (apokalupsei) of Christ, at which time the Christian may rejoice. But, according to dispensationalism, the Christian should rejoice seven years earlier at the rapture.

 

Further, the use of the word “end” comes from a word that refers to “full end” and, in the New Testament, always refers to the end of the world, i.e., the Judgment day (see Boettner, p. 168-169). In Matthew 28:20, Jesus promised to be with the disseminators of the Gospel message to the very “end.” This means the church will remain on the Earth, preaching the Gospel, until the Judgment Day. But if the church is “raptured away” seven years before the end, she cannot fulfill what Christ commanded her to do! In Matthew 13:39-40, there is no removal of the saints before the “full end.” The righteous and the wicked grow together until the very end. The separation of the two comes at the end (not seven years before the end). The dispensationalist claims that the righteous will be taken out from among the wicked. But the Bible says just the opposite: the wicked will be taken out from among the righteous (Matthew 13:39-40).

 

The doctrine of the “Rapture” asserts that believers will be raised seven years before the “Revelation,” and 1,007 years before the end of the “Millennium.” But in four separate verses, Jesus Himself said believers will be raised “at the last day” (John 6:39,40,44,54). There can be no other days after the last day. So the believers cannot be raised at an alleged “Rapture” before the last day.

 

Finally, the Second Coming of Christ is nowhere depicted as secret, as the “Rapture” advocates affirm. In fact, just the opposite is true. Christ’s coming will be accompanied by “blazing fire” (2 Thessalonians 1:7), the sound of a trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52), a “shout,” the “voice of the archangel,” and the “trump of God” (1 Thessalonians 4:16). In fact, “every eye will see Him” (Revelation 1:7). These passages show that all persons everywhere will see and hear this event. In fact, the very passage upon which the doctrine of the “Rapture” is founded (i.e., 1 Thessalonians 4:16), far from describing a quiet and secretive event, is about the noisiest verse in the Bible!

 

When one is willing to remove from the mind all preconceived, complex, and sensational theological concoctions, and simply let the Bible present its own portrait of the end of time and the Second Coming of Christ, the dispensational viewpoint of a postulated “Rapture” is seen to be totally unfounded.

 

 

 

REFERENCES

 

Boettner, Loraine (1957), The Millennium (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed).

 

Lindsey, Hal (1970), The Late Great Planet Earth (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).

 

“The Official Left Behind Series Site,” (2003), [On-line], URL: http://www.leftbehind.com/.

 

Whisenant, Edgar and Greg Brewer (1989), The Final Shout Rapture 1989 Report (Nashville, TN: World Bible Society).

 

 

 

 

 

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[DaveTV1]

I think Colmesneilfan did with writings that aren't my own. However, I have to agree with Dr. Dave Miller.

[TheShadowKnows]

First whether one is a pre-triber or post-triber does not affect ones salvation. I believe in the rapture maybe becuase I am too scared to go thru the tribulation :sweat: , or becuase I believe the rapture is sound docterine. Yes, the word rapture is not in The Bible. Niether is the word Trinity in The Bible, but can be found thruought scripture.... and I believe The Trinity to be sound and nessacery docterine.... Back on topic of end times. here is a link with some good info, and since it is long I copied and pasted some key info.

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/rapture.htm

 

The rapture of the faithful in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming*

Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 --------------------Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14

Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3 ----------------Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30

He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52 --------------------Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30

Earth not judged -----------------------------------------------Earth judged Rev 20:4-5

A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51 --------------------------------------Foretold in OT Zech 12:10

Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30 -------Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1,

He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2 ---He comes with His Church for judgement and to set up his Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12 ------------------Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20

Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52---------------Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10

Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8 --------------------No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

Jesus comes as a thief in the night 1Th 24:43---------------Jesus comes at the end of 7 years of tribulation Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

--------

 

 

 

The ancient Jewish marriage ceremony proclaims a pretribulation rapture picture.

<The groom goes to the bride's house and is betrothed to the bride (the faithful on the earth)
>He pays the purchase price (his blood)
>He returns to his father to prepare a place for the bride ("I go to prepare a place for you") >
Later the groom comes for the bride (rapture) <
>He takes her to his father's house and gives her gifts where she is adorned and prepared for the wedding (judgment seat of Christ where crowns are awarded)
>The wedding then takes place before the father and the witnesses (in the father's house)
>The groom appears with his bride (second coming in glory with his saints)
• Then the wedding feast takes place (on earth with invited guests of the bride and groom)

-------------

 

 

 

 

Is pretribulation rapture theology a new Church doctrine?

Some say there is no rapture of the Church prior to the tribulation and point out that it was not even taught to the Church until the 1800's.

 

In Grant Jeffrey's book "Triumphant Return", he writes that about 373 AD Ephraem taught in a sermon that there was a pre-tribulation rapture. This writing can be found in Ephraem's sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.", Ephraem said in this sermon, "For the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins".

 

Ephraem also taught in this same sermon that the war of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 would precede the tribulation and he taught the imminent return of Jesus.

------------

 

 

 

Some highlights of the book of Revelation are:

 

<The story of the risen Savior. <
The letters to the seven churches and the prophecy of the seven Church ages on earth
The tribulation period and God dealing with Israel again after the Church age is complete.
>The second coming of Jesus. <
>The thousand year reign of Jesus on earth. <
>The final rebellion led by Satan. <
>The great white throne judgment. <
>Jesus turns over the kingdom to the Father after all enemies are defeated.
• A new heaven and earth in a perfect new creation.

-----------

Note... Matthew chapters 24 and 25, Mark chapter 13, and Luke chapters 17 and 21 also deal with the end times. They also are the most used references for those who believe the Church will go through the tribulation but in these scriptures what we really see is Israel going through the tribulation and the gathering of tribulation saints to Israel.

 

[RETIREDFAN1]

We are already living in the Tribulation spoken of in Revelations...it began on the Day of Pentecost in 33 AD and will end on the Day of Judgment.....scripture backs this interpretation up without having to jump through hoops and go through various interpretations......

 

Those of us who have obeyed the Gospel and who overcome the daily battle in the war of flesh vs. spirit (the scriptural battle of Armageddon) are the ones who will receive the blessings shown in the book.....

[RETIREDFAN1]

This item is available on the Apologetics Press Web site at: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2293

 

AP Content :: Scripturally Speaking

 

The Bible is its Own Best Interpreter

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

 

Many excellent books have been written that discuss the principles involved in understanding the Bible. Within churches of Christ, for example, several fine volumes have been produced to assist the Christian in comprehending the Bible’s intended meanings (e.g., Dungan, 1888; Lockhart, 1901; Kearley, et al., 1986). One feature of the process of interpreting the Bible is the Bible’s own ability to shed light on its meaning. The Holy Spirit caused the Bible to be written with the specific intention that people would be able to understand its message. Consequently, the Bible shares in common with other books the basic characteristics that one might expect any piece of written communication to possess. It utilizes the same laws of thought and language, and it assumes that the honest, sincere, dedicated student can arrive at the meanings intended by the Author.

 

Perhaps the greatest deterrent to a proper interpretation of the Bible is the widespread and growing sense of uncertainty in the acquisition of absolute truth. American civilization has been inundated with pluralism, and has been brow-beaten into accepting the notion that one belief is as good as another, and that it really does not matter what one believes. Since so many people hold to so many conflicting beliefs, it is commonly thought that no one should be so intolerant, arrogant, and mean-spirited as to think that he has a corner on truth. One belief is as good as another, so we are told. And the same principle applies to religion, ethics, and virtually every other facet of human existence. Agnosticism (the philosophical posture that insists that one cannot know) has literally come to dominate our society. Perhaps the majority of Americans now feel that one cannot know whether the God of the Bible exists, whether the Bible is the one and only Word of God, whether Christianity is the only true religion, or whether New Testament Christianity is distinguishable from denominationalism.

 

TRUTH, LOGIC, AND KNOWLEDGE

 

At the heart of the issue of how the Bible should be interpreted, and whether the Bible is its own best interpreter, lies the deeper question of whether we humans are capable of knowing anything for certain, whether we can use logic to reason correctly, and whether we can arrive at truth. These preconditions for understanding the Bible may seem obvious and self-evident to Christians. But we are living at a time in which most people have been influenced to think that we cannot be certain about knowing anything. It goes without saying that this viewpoint is self-contradictory. Yet many continue to believe it.

 

Of course, the Bible is filled with statements that presuppose (and, in fact, absolutely demand) that we reason correctly, weigh evidence, and come to correct conclusions regarding God’s will. Through Isaiah, God beckoned: “Come now, and let us reason together” (1:18), and “State your case, that you may be acquitted” (43:26). The noble Bereans “searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so” (Acts 17:11). Paul said he was appointed for “the defense of the gospel” (Philippians 1:17). He insisted that the Thessalonians “test all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). He told Timothy to rightly divide the word of truth and to correct those who were in opposition (2 Timothy 2:15,25). Peter urged us to “always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you” (1 Peter 3:15). John warned: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). And Jude said that we must “contend earnestly for the faith” (Jude 3). Every single one of these verses, and many, many more, demand that the individual engage in a process of assessing facts, investigating circumstances, weighing evidence, diligent thinking, and reasoning, in order to arrive at the truth.

 

Yet, the magnitude of disagreement that exists in the world is astonishing. It is frustrating, depressing, heart-rending, and mind-boggling. For example, in American politics, a wide range of viewpoints exists with a multiplicity of variations and shades. How can so many politicians adamantly insist that abortion is absolutely right and good, while many other politicians, with equal vigor, insist that abortion is evil and wrong? How can people be so diametrically opposed to each other’s viewpoints? In religion, the diversity and cleavage is incredible. Christendom is hopelessly divided due to differing doctrinal views. The vast majority of those who claim to be following Christ adamantly maintain that water immersion is not necessary to salvation. Millions believe that it is appropriate to sprinkle infants, or to worship God with instruments of music, or that you cannot fall from grace. The religious division that exists in the entire world is even more staggering, since, for example, Islam (representing over a billion people) and Hinduism (representing about a billion people) are in absolute and complete contradiction to each other. By the very nature of their views, they cannot possibly “agree to disagree.” Atheism maintains that all religion is crazy. Karl Marx said that religion is the “opiate of the people.” So to the communist, evolutionist, and atheist, religion is actually harmful and detrimental to society.

 

With such irreparable, irreversibly deep diversity, no wonder so many have thrown up their hands and concluded that we cannot know for sure who is right and who is wrong (or perhaps more commonly, it really does not matter what is right and wrong). But after surveying the disconcerting, discouraging condition of the world’s lack of interest in ascertaining spiritual reality, one can return once again to the Bible, bring the entire state of affairs back into focus, and make perfect sense of the situation. It has ever been this way! The vast majority of humanity has always chosen to go its own way—for a variety of reasons and motivations. But the truth can be ascertained! Hence, they are all without excuse (cf. Romans 1:20).

 

The notion that the Bible is its own best interpreter was articulated during the Reformation as a reaction to the Catholic notion that the church was the final interpreter of God’s Word. The reformers took issue with this claim, and insisted instead that “Scripture is its own interpreter” (Scriptura sacra sui ipsius interpres). What they meant was that the totality of the Bible must be allowed to interpret every part of the Bible. Thus, “no part of Scripture can be so interpreted as to deform the teaching of the whole of Scripture” (Ramm, et al., 1987, p. 23). As Milton Terry observed: “God’s written word, taken as a whole, and allowed to speak for itself, will be found to be its own best interpreter” (n.d., p. 162; cf. p. 222).

 

There is much to be said for the recognition that to really understand the Bible—to really know the Bible—one must study the Bible book by book, giving attention to the contextual variables that characterize each individual book, and grasping the overall argument and line of reasoning inherent in each book. Clinton Lockhart, a Christian who authored a textbook on hermeneutics in 1901 that, by some estimations, surpasses the work of Dungan, pointed out that “no man that reads the Bible merely as a collection of proverbs or disconnected texts can ever understand the real nature of the sacred volume” (p. 233). Indeed, there is no substitute or shortcut to Bible interpretation. One must develop a broad and thorough familiarity with the entire Bible

 

THE BIBLE:

ITS OWN BEST INTERPRETER ON HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM

 

The Scriptures contain within them the keys to their own interpretation. Take, for example, the question of Holy Spirit baptism. The charismatic community typically associates the expression “Holy Spirit baptism” with the phenomenon that enables the believer to speak in tongues, heal someone, or work other miracles. In other words, Holy Spirit baptism is simply a generic reference to miraculous empowerment. Anyone who can speak in a tongue or perform any other miraculous action is said to have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. He is said to be “Spirit-filled.” However, the Bible actually alludes to Holy Spirit baptism in a very narrow, specialized, even technical sense (see Miller, 2003). Just because a person could speak in tongues or work miracles did not necessarily mean he or she had been baptized in the Holy Spirit. The principle of the Bible being its own best interpreter is well illustrated in the verses that allude directly to Holy Spirit baptism: Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5; and Acts 11:16. In all three verses, Holy Spirit baptism is mentioned by name, and the language that is employed links the three occasions together. Thus, one critical principle involved in allowing the Bible to interpret itself is to recognize and accept the explicit explanations that verses often give on a particular subject.

 

THE BIBLE:

ITS OWN BEST INTERPRETER ON BAPTISM AS A SYMBOL

 

Another example where we see the Bible being its own best interpreter pertains to baptism. The Protestant world has insisted that water baptism is a secondary and subsequent action to salvation. Various religionists have maintained that it serves as “an outward sign of an inward grace.” They claim that baptism is a symbol—a visible expression of the forgiveness already received at the point of faith. But the Bible nowhere articulates this provocative, illicit concept. It is the figment of someone’s vivid imagination that has been taken up and repeated so often that it sounds “biblical.” When Ananias prodded Paul to “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16), he said nothing about an alleged symbolic cleansing or post-forgiveness washing. He uttered not one word that would lead the unbiased reader to even remotely conclude that Paul’s sins were washed away before he was baptized.

 

The grammar that the Holy Spirit selected by which to express Himself is very often a key to allowing the Bible to interpret itself. In Acts 22:16, the grammar further militates against the denominational interpretation so often placed on Paul’s baptism. The Holy Spirit utilized two participles and two verbs in verse 16 that clarify His intended meaning:

 

anastas is an aorist active participle: “having arisen” or “rising”

 

baptisai is an aorist middle imperative verb: “get yourself baptized”

 

apolousai is also an aorist middle imperative verb: “get your sins washed away”

 

epikalesamenos is an aorist middle participle: “you will have been calling”

 

An adverbial participle is a participle that is used as an adverb to modify the verb. “Calling” is an adverbial participle of manner. It shows the manner in which the main verbs are accomplished. The verbs (“baptized” and “wash away sins”)—joined by the coordinate conjunction “and” (kai)—are “causative middles” (Robertson, 1934, p. 808) in the aorist tense, and so relate to the aorist middle of the participle that follows (“calling”). Hence, a literal translation would be: “Having arisen, get yourself baptized and get your sins washed away, and you will have been calling on the name of the Lord.” In other words, Ananias was telling Paul that the way to accomplish “calling on the Lord” was to be baptized and have his sins washed away. The Holy Spirit deliberately formulated the grammar of every passage in the Bible so that His writing would interpret itself!

 

But doesn’t the Bible teach that baptism is, in fact, a symbol? Doesn’t baptism have “symbolic” significance? Yes, the Bible assigns symbolic significance to baptism in regard to at least three distinct features. Paul said that water baptism symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. He used the terms “likeness” and “form” to pinpoint this symbolism (Romans 6:5,17). He later identified a symbolic link between baptism and Old Testament circumcision—the idea that as skin was cut off by circumcision, so sins are cut off at baptism (Colossians 2:11-12). Peter added a third instance of baptism’s symbolic value. He compared a person passing through the water of baptism in order to be saved (by Christ’s resurrection) with the eight persons who were saved “by,” i.e., through (dia) the water of the Flood of Noah’s day (1 Peter 3:20-21). Notice carefully how the Bible is its own best interpreter: baptism symbolizes: (1) Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection; (2) the “cutting off” of circumcision; and (3) the waters of the Flood. How in the world could anyone get out of this that baptism symbolizes past forgiveness that was achieved prior to being baptized?

 

THE BIBLE:

ITS OWN BEST INTERPRETER ON THE NEW BIRTH

 

The account of Jesus’ encounter with Nicodemus has certainly spawned a great deal of resistance to the role of water baptism in God’s scheme of redemption. While the bulk of Christendom for most of the last 2,000 years has recognized that “water” in John 3:5 is an allusion to water baptism (Shepherd, 1894, pp. 320-338), in the last few decades, many have attempted to assign a different meaning to the word—everything from “blood,” “sperm,” and the “Spirit” to the “water” that accompanies the physical birth of a child (i.e., amniotic fluid). However, once again, the Bible is its own best interpreter.

 

The context yields three useful factors. In the first place, Nicodemus thought being “born again” entailed physical birth (vs. 4). Jesus would not have followed up that misunderstanding by confirming it! If “water” in verse five refers to physical birth, then the flow of thought was that when Nicodemus asked if Jesus was referring to physical birth, Jesus responded that He was: “Do I have to be born physically a second time from my mother’s womb?” “Yes, you must be born of water….” In the second place, Jesus would not have told Nicodemus that one of the prerequisites for getting into the spiritual kingdom is physical birth. That would have Jesus making the redundant and ridiculous statement: “Before you can get into My kingdom, you first have to become a human being.” To frame such a statement would not only make Jesus appear oblivious to the fact that Nicodemus was already a human being, but also would put Jesus in the absurd position of thinking He needed to inform all non-humans (i.e., the animals) that they are not permitted entrance into the kingdom.

 

In the third place, while multiple occurrences of the same word in the same context can have different meanings, attendant extenuating circumstances would be necessary in order to realize the distinction. No such factors are evident, especially since, eighteen verses later, the writer informs us that John the baptizer “was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there” (John 3:23, emp. added). Was John baptizing in that location because there was much amniotic fluid there? Or because there was much blood there? Or because the Holy Spirit was there? The Bible is indeed its own best interpreter!

 

THE BIBLE:

ITS OWN BEST INTERPRETER ON THE KINGDOM

 

Premillennialists are fond of calling attention to the concluding prophetic remarks of Amos: “‘On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old; that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ says the Lord who does this thing” (Amos 9:11-12). They insist that the fulfillment of this prophecy is yet future. They say the Temple, which was destroyed in A.D. 70 by the Romans (Matthew 23:37-24:35), will be rebuilt on the Temple platform in Jerusalem (a site currently occupied by the third most holy shrine of Islam—the Dome of the Rock). They say that Jesus will return after the Rapture, the Tribulation, and Armageddon, and set up His millennial kingdom. They say He will reign on a literal throne for a thousand years, and incorporate the Gentiles, in addition to the nation of Israel, into His kingdom. On the face of it, this prophecy certainly possesses terminology that fits the millenarian interpretation placed upon it.

 

However, two Bible passages dispute this interpretation, and settle the question as to the proper application of Amos’ prophecy. The first is the great Messianic prophecy uttered by the prophet Nathan to King David regarding David’s future lineage and royal dynasty (2 Samuel 7:12-16). Nathan declared that God would establish and sustain the Davidic dynasty. Even though he also noted that a permanent form of the Tabernacle (that God refused to allow David to build [2 Samuel 7:1-7]) would be built by David’s son (i.e., Solomon), God, Himself, would build David a house, i.e., a dynasty, a kingly lineage. It is this lineage to which Amos referred—not a physical temple building.

 

The second passage that clarifies Amos’ prophecy is the account of the Jerusalem “conference” (Acts 15). Following Peter’s report regarding Gentile inclusion in the kingdom, James offered the following confirmatory comment: “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written” (Acts 15:13-15). James then quoted Amos 9:11-12. In other words, on that most auspicious occasion, James was noting two significant facts that had come to pass precisely as predicted by Amos: (1) after the downfall of the Jewish kingdom, the Davidic dynasty had been reinstated in the person of Christ—the “Son of David” (Matthew 22:42)—Who, at His ascension, had been enthroned in heaven, thereby “rebuilding the tabernacle of David that had fallen down”; and (2) with the conversion of the first Gentiles in Acts 10, as reported on this occasion by Peter, the “residue of men,” or the non-Jewish segment of humanity, was now “seeking the Lord.” I repeat: the Bible is its own best interpreter.

 

A fitting conclusion to this feature of God’s amazing Word might be the remark made by Peter on the occasion of the establishment of the church of Christ on Earth. You no doubt remember how he and his fellow apostles, empowered by the Holy Spirit to speak foreign languages to the international audience gathered on that occasion were nevertheless accused of being intoxicated. After noting it was too early in the day for such an explanation to be plausible, he prefaced his quotation of Joel with the following words: “This is that….” Much of the effort that we expend in coming to a correct understanding of God’s Word will be directed toward that very goal. Peter was telling his Pentecost audience: the Bible is its own best interpreter.

 

REFERENCES

 

Dungan, D.R. (1888), Hermeneutics (Delight, AR: Gospel Light).

 

Kearley, F. Furman, Edward P. Myers, and Timothy D. Hadley, eds. (1986), Biblical Interpretation (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker).

 

Lockhart, Clinton (1915), Principles of Interpretation (Delight, AR: Gospel Light), revised edition.

 

Miller, Dave (2003), “Modern-day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation,” [On-line], URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2572.

 

Ramm, Bernard, et al. (1987), Hermeneutics (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker).

 

Robertson, A.T. (1934), A Grammar of the Greek New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman).

 

Shepherd, J.W. (1894), Handbook on Baptism (Nashville, TN: Gospel Advocate, 1972 reprint).

 

Terry, Milton (no date), Biblical Hermeneutics (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan), reprint.

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

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We are happy to grant permission for items in the "Scripturally Speaking" section to be reproduced in their entirety, as long as the following stipulations are observed: (1) Apologetics Press must be designated as the original publisher; (2) the specific Apologetics Press Web site URL must be noted; (3) the author’s name must remain attached to the materials; (4) any references, footnotes, or endnotes that accompany the article must be included with any written reproduction of the article; (5) alterations of any kind are strictly forbidden (e.g., photographs, charts, graphics, quotations, etc. must be reproduced exactly as they appear in the original); (6) serialization of written material (e.g., running an article in several parts) is permitted, as long as the whole of the material is made available, without editing, in a reasonable length of time; (7) articles, in whole or in part, may not be offered for sale or included in items offered for sale; and (8) articles may be reproduced in electronic form for posting on Web sites pending they are not edited or altered from their original content and that credit is given to Apologetics Press, including the web location from which the articles were taken.

 

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[TheShadowKnows]

The rapture of the faithful in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming

*

Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 --------------------Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14

Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3 ----------------Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30

He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52 --------------------Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30

Earth not judged -----------------------------------------------Earth judged Rev 20:4-5

A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51 --------------------------------------Foretold in OT Zech 12:10

Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30 -------Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1,

He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2 ---He comes with His Church for judgement and to set up his Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12 ------------------Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20

Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52---------------Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10

Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8 --------------------No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

Jesus comes as a thief in the night 1Th 24:43---------------Jesus comes at the end of 7 years of tribulation Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

--------

 

 

 

Colmes help me out with these verses

 

let us start with this. how can Christ return with His own if he has not gathered them in to begin with? I say that points to the rapture. Tell me what you think it points to?

 

If anybody else wants to chime in I am cool with it also and God Bless

 

Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 --------------------Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14

[RETIREDFAN1]

This item is available on the Apologetics Press Web site at: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2311

 

AP Content :: Scripturally Speaking

 

What will Happen when Jesus Comes Again?

by Kyle Butt, M.A.

 

On numerous occasions throughout the last two thousand years, small groups of “faithful followers” have huddled on mountaintops or in secret rooms, waiting for the Second Coming of Christ as predicted to occur on a certain day, and at a certain time, by some religious leader. Yet, although the predictions of Christ’s return have been copious, each group of expectant “believers” has been disappointed to find that they had been misled. When will Christ return, and what will occur on this Earth when He does come back the second (and last) time?

 

The first question regarding the time of Christ’s Second Coming is rather easy to answer, thanks to material found within the Bible. In Matthew 24:36, after describing the signs that would lead to the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus shifted the topic to His Second Coming. In contrast to the many signs that the early Christians were told to expect prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus made it clear that there would be no signs whereby one could predict His Second Coming. He stated: “But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only…. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not expect Him” (Matthew 24:36,44). In another portion of Scripture, the apostle Paul told the Thessalonian brethren that the day of the Lord would come “as a thief in the night” (1 Thessalonians 5:2). When will Jesus return? The simple answer to that question is—nobody on this Earth has any idea.

 

The next question dealing with the events that will occur at the Second Coming requires a much more extensive answer. When Christ ascended to heaven, forty days after His resurrection, He “was taken up, and a cloud received Him” out of the sight of His apostles (Acts 1:9). Immediately following His ascension, two men clothed in white apparel stood by the awe-stricken apostles and said to them, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). From that moment, the apostles waited for Christ’s Second Coming.

 

The Second Coming, in fact, provided one of the main themes of the apostles’ preaching. Paul, especially, emphasized this event as one that would be glorious and joyful for the faithful in Christ—both those who were living when Christ returned, and those who had died in Christ. In relating some of the events that would accompany Christ’s Second Coming, Paul wrote: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The event, as Paul described it, would be one of splendor and comfort for those faithful to Christ. Christ will not send an angel or some other dignitary to bring Christians to heaven, but He will come “Himself.” His coming will be announced with a loud shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God. According to Paul, Christ will not “sneak back” to Earth, but will be announced in a glorious fashion for all to see.

 

How long will it take for the faithful followers of Christ to be ushered up into heaven with their Lord? Paul answered this question in 1 Corinthians 15 in his discussion of the resurrection of the saints. He wrote: “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep [meaning that not all Christians will die physically before the Second Coming—KB], but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). In a single instance, as fast as an eye can blink, the resurrection of the saints will be accomplished at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

Other events that will accompany the Second Coming deal with the ultimate end of this physical Universe. The apostle Peter, in a discourse dealing with scoffers who attempt to deny the Second Coming of Christ, wrote:

 

But the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with a fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells (2 Peter 3:10-13).

 

Peter’s description of the destruction of this physical Universe leaves little to the imagination: the Earth and the heavens (i.e., the totality of this physical Universe) will utterly melt with a fervent heat, and will be destroyed once and for all. There will be no reign of Christ on this Earth at His Second Coming, since Peter clearly depicts the destruction of the physical Earth. The new heaven and the new Earth for which Peter says faithful Christians yearn, are the spiritual homes promised by Jesus in John 14:1-6, and described so vividly in Revelation 21 and 22. They will not be of physical matter like the present heavens and Earth, but instead will be designed especially for the new spiritual bodies discussed by Paul. When Christ comes again, this physical Universe will be destroyed.

 

What will happen to those who have not been faithful to Christ during their lives on this Earth? Since there will be no physical Universe on which they can continue to live, where will they go? The Bible paints a grim picture for those who reject Christ. John, quoting the words of Christ, wrote that “the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His [Jesus’—KB] voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28-29). The apostle Paul later confirmed this statement when He wrote about the time “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8).

 

On that fateful day, all of Earth’s inhabitants—both those that have died in the past and those that are living at the time—will be led into the final Judgment in which Christ will divide the righteous from the unrighteous, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats. The righteous will be ushered into heaven (prepared for them by Jesus Himself), while the unrighteous will “go away into everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). All those who have rejected God and Christ, whose names are not found written in the Book of Life, will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil, and “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10-15).

 

Although many strange and contrived stories have been concocted regarding the Second Coming of Christ, the Bible presents a crystal clear picture of what will happen: Christ will appear to the entire world, the heavens and the Earth will be burned up, and at the final Judgment, every person who ever lived will either live eternally in heaven or hell. There will be no second chances once Christ comes back. “Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of person ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness” (2 Peter 3:11)?

 

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Copyright © 2003 Apologetics Press, Inc. All rights reserved.

We are happy to grant permission for items in the "Scripturally Speaking" section to be reproduced in their entirety, as long as the following stipulations are observed: (1) Apologetics Press must be designated as the original publisher; (2) the specific Apologetics Press Web site URL must be noted; (3) the author’s name must remain attached to the materials; (4) any references, footnotes, or endnotes that accompany the article must be included with any written reproduction of the article; (5) alterations of any kind are strictly forbidden (e.g., photographs, charts, graphics, quotations, etc. must be reproduced exactly as they appear in the original); (6) serialization of written material (e.g., running an article in several parts) is permitted, as long as the whole of the material is made available, without editing, in a reasonable length of time; (7) articles, in whole or in part, may not be offered for sale or included in items offered for sale; and (8) articles may be reproduced in electronic form for posting on Web sites pending they are not edited or altered from their original content and that credit is given to Apologetics Press, including the web location from which the articles were taken.

 

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[TheShadowKnows]

I read the post and I still read rapture.

Why I believe in the rapture and all this is just off the top of my head and if one wants Scriptre refrences scroll about two post up.

 

After the rapture Christ will finish what he started with Isreal. He can not do that right now becuase we are living in The Church age. Also God is not thru with Isreal, becuase if he was it would have ceased to be a long time ago. But God is getting ready for The Church age to end (rapture). Why? becuase God has brought Isreal back to the land of promise. Why? so they can be His witness to the world after the rapture of The Church, and so that the rest of prophecy may be fullfilled that is not yet fullfilled.

 

The Grace of The Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen

[RETIREDFAN1]

God finished with Israel in 70 AD when He allowed the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple....the Jews lost their inheritance and their right to be called God's children because they rejected His covenant by their idolatry in the OT and by their murder of His Son in the NT....all which FULFILLED prophecy from the beginning of time....Christ fulfilled every prophecy ever made in the OT.....Now, those of us who followed God's plan for our salvation obediently, and who live faithful lives, are His children, spiritual Israel...that would be His church which was established on Pentecost in 33 AD....

 

Those of you who believe in the denominational errors on this topic are led astray by the same thing that led the Pharisees astray in the 1st Century: they were looking for an earthly kingdom as well. Christ, however, told Pilate that His Kingdom was not of this world, but a spiritual kingdom....you guys can keep looking for that earthly kingdom right up until the Day of Judgment comes (as described in the scriptures from the articles above), but you are never going to see it until you turn to God and obey the Gospel....

 

New Testament Christians are IN the kingdom of Christ today...that Kingdom is His Church....

[TheShadowKnows]

If God was finished with Isreal then why would he make Isreal a nation agian in one day. Isaiah 66:8-9

and it happened in may 14, 1948.

 

How come the Jews have not lost thier national idenity thruout the ages?

 

Do we not worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob? Did God make a covenent with Abraham?

Does God change His mind?

 

Then why would God be done with Isreal if he made a covanent with Abraham and since Jews are a direct desendent from Abraham?

 

And who is tying to set up an earthly kingdom? Definitly not people who believe in the rapture. The Ermergent Church and liberals about all I can think of.

 

And all prophecy concerning Jesus and The Bible has not been fullfilled becuase Christ has not returned yet. Who was the 144,000 thousand and how did I miss them? What about the stinging locust and the 200,000,000 army that kills 1/3 of mankind? Has the two prophets came to Jeruslem and judged thier eniemies for 1260 days? And who was the false prophet from Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, becuase I missed that one too.

 

Not trying to be a smarty pance but if all prophecy has been fullfilled then these questions must have an answer.

 

The Grace of The Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen

[RETIREDFAN1]

All of the prophecies about Israel being a new nation are in reference to His Church, which is His Kingdom, which came into being in 33 AD on the Day of Pentecost....You guys misread and mistranslate the same passages that the Pharisees misread and mistranslated when THEY were looking for an earthly kingdom....It ain't gonna happen....The Kingdom of Christ, the New Israel, is here and it is the universal Church of Christ, the church He bought with His blood...it is spiritual in nature and only a very few will ever find their way to it.....

 

Matthew 7: 13 - 14

 

God did not change His mind...Israel broke the covenant and it became void because of their idolatry....all it takes is a quick read of the Minor Prophets to see this.....

 

God's land promise to Abraham was fulfilled when Israel conquered Canaan in the OT....God's promise to bless all nations through Abraham was fulfilled in Christ.....

 

The nationality of the people who followed the Jewish religion is Hebrew...the Hebrew people are still around, but the Jewish religion ceased to exist when the geneologies were destroyed by the Romans....not a single person can trace his or her lineage back to Abraham, which was a requirement to be a Jew.....the only Jews, Spiritual Jews, are God's children who have chosen through our faith to follow the path God laid out for us to gain salvation through the blood of Christ...We are called Christians.....we worship at a congregation of the Lord's church near you.....come visit a church of Christ in your town and let's study the Word together to seek THE TRUTH, not be spoonfed someone's error....

[RETIREDFAN1]

God's land promise to Abraham was fulfilled when Israel conquered Canaan in the OT....

 

Joshua 21: 43 - 45

43 Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there. 44 And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one word of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.

 

 

[RETIREDFAN1]

Then why would God be done with Isreal if he made a covanent with Abraham and since Jews are a direct desendent from Abraham?

 

Deuteronomy 8: 11 - 20

11"Take care lest you forget the LORD your God by not keeping his commandments and his rules and his statutes, which I command you today, 12 lest, when you have eaten and are full and have built good houses and live in them, 13and when your herds and flocks multiply and your silver and gold is multiplied and all that you have is multiplied, 14 then your heart be lifted up, and you forget the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, 15who led you through the great and terrifying wilderness, with its fiery serpents and scorpions and thirsty ground where there was no water, who brought you water out of the flinty rock, 16who fed you in the wilderness with manna that your fathers did not know, that he might humble you and test you, to do you good in the end. 17Beware lest you say in your heart, 'My power and the might of my hand have gotten me this wealth.' 18You shall remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day. 19And if you forget the LORD your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I solemnly warn you today that you shall surely perish. 20Like the nations that the LORD makes to perish before you, so shall you perish, because you would not obey the voice of the LORD your God.

 

 

 

[RETIREDFAN1]

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprint...in-Biblical.pdf

[VballAceSpike]

God finished with Israel in 70 AD when He allowed the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple....the Jews lost their inheritance and their right to be called God's children because they rejected His covenant by their idolatry in the OT and by their murder of His Son in the NT....all which FULFILLED prophecy from the beginning of time....Christ fulfilled every prophecy ever made in the OT.....Now, those of us who followed God's plan for our salvation obediently, and who live faithful lives, are His children, spiritual Israel...that would be His church which was established on Pentecost in 33 AD....

 

Those of you who believe in the denominational errors on this topic are led astray by the same thing that led the Pharisees astray in the 1st Century: they were looking for an earthly kingdom as well. Christ, however, told Pilate that His Kingdom was not of this world, but a spiritual kingdom....you guys can keep looking for that earthly kingdom right up until the Day of Judgment comes (as described in the scriptures from the articles above), but you are never going to see it until you turn to God and obey the Gospel....

 

New Testament Christians are IN the kingdom of Christ today...that Kingdom is His Church....

 

With all due respect sir, from your signature I gather that you also believe baptism is the only thing that saves. Do you not believe in deathbed professions of faith in Christ? I mean, if that is so, are you saying that Jesus lied to the thief on the Cross?

[RETIREDFAN1]

With all due respect sir, from your signature I gather that you also believe baptism is the only thing that saves. Do you not believe in deathbed professions of faith in Christ? I mean, if that is so, are you saying that Jesus lied to the thief on the Cross?

 

 

Baptism alone does not save one....We must believe in the Gospel message (faith), we must repent of our past sins (change our lives), we must openly confess our belief that Jesus is the Son of the Living God (confession), we must be baptized for the remission of our sins (obedience). At that point, the point of baptism, our sins are washed away and we become Christians, and are added to the Universal Church of Christ, the Kingdom of God....we then must live faithful lives, confessing our sins to God and asking for forgiveness when we fall....

 

The thief on the cross is irrelevant here as he died BEFORE the resurrection and BEFORE the Gospel message was required.....the thief on the cross died under the Law of Moses, NOT the Gospel....I do not believe in any kind of conversion without baptism....which is very much in line with the Word of God.....