Various Religious Topics Discussed Here....

[RETIREDFAN1]

I have a question regarding baptismal regeneration. I have placed my faith and trust in Jesus as my savior. I was baptized too. However, when I was baptized, I didn't "believe" that the waters washed away my sins. Do I have to "believe" that the waters would wash away my sins in order to be saved or am I saved just becaused I was baptized?

 

Also, I have wondered about people who may have heard the gospel at some point in their lives and are alone at their house or at a hotel and the Holy Spirit convicts them to the point that they "believe" on Jesus and desire to be saved. If baptism is required for salvation, then could that person baptize themselves if no else was around? Could they fill up the bathtub and get all the way under the water and be baptized?

 

Thanks!

 

Belief = faith....you take it from there.......

 

The Bible doesn't speak on the second question, so I won't, except to say that the one being baptized is the one seeking salvation, not the one doing the baptizing....

[VballAceSpike]

Cf1 >

The word “testament” means “covenant” or “will.” The last will and testament of Christ is the New Testament, which consists of those teachings that apply to people after the death of Christ.

John 19:31-33 31)The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the sabbath day (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away 32)Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him 33)But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs

 

 

 

So according to this passage, Jesus died before the thief, which means he would be under the new covenant law by your own statement above.

 

 

[RETIREDFAN1]

You are not understanding exactly WHEN the New Covenant came into being.....The New Testament or Covenant did not come into being UNTIL Peter used the keys to the Kingdom and opened the gates so that all would have the opportunity to gain salvation....that occurred on the Day of Pentecost, as described in Acts 2......events which did indeed occur and "apply to people after the death of Christ".......

[VballAceSpike]

Are you forgiven when you repent? But you are not saved until baptism? So you are forgiven before you are saved? That is what you are saying. I understand what the Bible says, I don't understand your explanation of it. First you said after the Death of Christ, then you said after the day of Pentecost which is it? they did not occur on the same day.

 

 

[RETIREDFAN1]

You are not forgiven until you have been baptized....baptism is the point where your sins are washed away (i.e. you are forgiven)....I have not stated anything different in any of my posts.....see Acts 22: 16 below.....

 

Once again: Christ died....THEN Pentecost happened.....Please notice that Pentecost happened after the death of Christ.....The New Covenant, the Church, Christ's Kingdom, all came into being on the day of Pentecost, which happened after the death of Christ......not on the same day as the death of Christ...the context of the Scriptures show us plainly and clearly the exact moment the New Testament came in power.....

[VballAceSpike]

Paul says in

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

[VballAceSpike]

Acts 22: 16...."16And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name."

the AND is the key here, note there is no AND between wash away your sins, calling on his name

 

And now why do you wait? Rise (is one thing) and be baptized (another) and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (another)

The way you are saying it, you should be calling on His name while you are being baptized. Like you said it is simple logic.

 

I do prefer King James version. I would capitalize His rather than bold "and be baptized"

[RETIREDFAN1]

Paul says in

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

Acts 18: 8:

8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

 

Just because Paul didn't do the baptizing doesn't mean that baptism wasn't required.....

[RETIREDFAN1]

the AND is the key here, note there is no AND between wash away your sins, calling on his name

 

And now why do you wait? Rise (is one thing) and be baptized (another) and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (another)

The way you are saying it, you should be calling on His name while you are being baptized. Like you said it is simple logic.

 

I do prefer King James version. I would capitalize Him rather than bold "and be baptized"

 

This item is available on the Apologetics Press Web site at: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/597

 

AP Content :: Alleged Discrepancies

 

"Calling on the Name of the Lord"

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

 

Considering how many people within “Christendom” teach that an individual can be saved merely by professing a belief in Christ, it is not surprising that skeptics claim that the Bible contradicts itself in this regard. Although Peter and Paul declared, “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13; cf. Joel 2:32), skeptics quickly remind their readers that Jesus once stated: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21; cf. Luke 6:46). Allegedly, Matthew 7:21 clashes with such passages as Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 (see Morgan, 2003; Wells, 2001). Since many professed Christians seem to equate “calling on the name of the Lord” with the idea of saying to Jesus, “Lord, save me,” Bible critics feel even more justified in their pronouncement of “conflicting testimonies.” How can certain professed followers of Christ claim that they were saved by simply “calling out to Christ,” when Christ Himself proclaimed that a mere calling upon Him would not save a person?

 

The key to correctly understanding the phrase “calling on the name of the Lord” is to recognize that more is involved in this action than a mere verbal petition directed toward God. The “call” mentioned in Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13, and Acts 22:16 (where Paul was “calling on the name of the Lord”), is not equated with the “call” (“Lord, Lord”) Jesus spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:21).

 

First, it is appropriate to mention that even in modern times, to “call on” someone frequently means more than simply making a request for something. When a doctor goes to the hospital to “call on” some of his patients, he does not merely walk into the room and say, “I just wanted to come by and say, ‘Hello.’ I wish you the best. Now pay me.” On the contrary, he involves himself in a service. He examines the patient, listens to the patient’s concerns, gives further instructions regarding the patient’s hopeful recovery, and then oftentimes prescribes medication. All of these elements may be involved in a doctor “calling upon” a patient. In the mid-twentieth century, it was common for young men to “call on” young ladies. Again, this expression meant something different than just “making a request” (Brown, 1976, p. 5).

 

Second, when an individual takes the time to study how the expression “calling on God” is used throughout Scripture, the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that, just as similar phrases sometimes have a deeper meaning in modern America, the expression “calling on God” often had a deeper meaning in Bible times. Take, for instance, Paul’s statement recorded in Acts 25:11: “I appeal unto Caesar.” The word “appeal” (epikaloumai) is the same word translated “call” (or “calling”) in Acts 2:21, 22:16, and Romans 10:13. But, Paul was not simply saying, “I’m calling on Caesar to save me.” As James Bales noted:

 

Paul, in appealing to Caesar, was claiming the right of a Roman citizen to have his case judged by Caesar. He was asking that his case be transferred to Caesar’s court and that Caesar hear and pass judgment on his case. In so doing, he indicated that he was resting his case on Caesar’s judgment. In order for this to be done Paul had to submit to whatever was necessary in order for his case to be brought before Caesar. He had to submit to the Roman soldiers who conveyed him to Rome. He had to submit to whatever formalities or procedure Caesar demanded of those who came before him. All of this was involved in his appeal to Caesar (1960, pp. 81-82, emp. added).

 

Paul’s “calling” to Caesar involved his submission to him. “That, in a nutshell,” wrote T. Pierce Brown, “is what ‘calling on the Lord’ involves”—obedience (1976, p. 5). It is not a mere verbal recognition of God, or a verbal petition to Him. Those whom Paul (before his conversion to Christ) sought to bind in Damascus—Christians who were described as people “who call on Your [Jehovah’s] name”—were not people who only prayed to God, but those who were serving the Lord, and who, by their obedience, were submitting themselves to His authority (cf. Matthew 28:18). Interestingly, Zephaniah 3:9 links one’s “calling” with his “service”: “For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, that they all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one accord” (emp. added). When a person submits to the will of God, he accurately can be described as “calling on the Lord.” Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 (among other passages) do not contradict Matthew 7:21, because to “call on the Lord” entails more than just pleading for salvation; it involves submitting to God’s will. According to Colossians 3:17, every single act a Christian performs (in word or deed) should be carried out by Christ’s authority. For a non-Christian receiving salvation, this is no different. In order to obtain salvation, a person must submit to the Lord’s authority. This is what the passages in Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 are teaching; it is up to us to go elsewhere in the New Testament to learn how to call upon the name of the Lord.

 

After Peter quoted the prophecy of Joel and told those in Jerusalem on Pentecost that “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Acts 2:21), he told them how to go about “calling on the name of the Lord.” The people in the audience in Acts 2 did not understand Peter’s quotation of Joel to mean that an alien sinner must pray to God for salvation. [Their question in Acts 2:37 (“Men and brethren, what shall we do?”) indicates such.] Furthermore, when Peter responded to their question and told them what to do to be saved, he did not say, “I’ve already told you what to do. You can be saved by petitioning God for salvation through prayer. Just call on His name.” On the contrary, Peter had to explain to them what it meant to “call on the name of the Lord.” Instead of repeating this statement when the crowd sought further guidance from the apostles, Peter commanded them, saying, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (2:38). Notice the parallel between Acts 2:21 and 2:38:

 

Acts 2:21 Whoever Calls On the name of the Lord Shall be saved

Acts 2:38 Everyone of you Repent and be baptized In the name of Jesus Christ For the remission of sins

 

Peter’s non-Christian listeners learned that “calling on the name of the Lord for salvation” was equal to obeying the Gospel, which approximately 3,000 did that very day by repenting of their sins and being baptized into Christ (2:38,41).

 

But what about Romans 10:13? What is the “call” mentioned in this verse? Notice Romans 10:11-15:

 

For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!” (emp. added).

 

Although this passage does not define precisely what is meant by one “calling on the name of the Lord,” it does indicate that an alien sinner cannot “call” until after he has heard the Word of God and believed it. Such was meant by Paul’s rhetorical questions: “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?” Paul’s statements in this passage are consistent with Peter’s proclamations in Acts 2. It was only after the crowd on Pentecost believed in the resurrected Christ Whom Peter preached (as is evident by their being “cut to the heart” and their subsequent question, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”) that Peter told them how to call on the name of the Lord and be saved (2:38).

 

Perhaps the clearest description of what it means for an alien sinner to “call on the name of the Lord” is found in Acts 22. As the apostle Paul addressed the mob in Jerusalem, he spoke of his encounter with the Lord, Whom he asked, “What shall I do?” (22:10; cf. 9:6). The answer Jesus gave Him at that time was not “call on the name of the Lord.” Instead, Jesus instructed him to “arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do” (22:10). Paul (or Saul—Acts 13:9) demonstrated his belief in Jesus as he went into the city and waited for further instructions. In Acts 9, we learn that during the next three days, while waiting to meet with Ananias, Paul fasted and prayed (vss. 9,11). Although some today might consider what Paul was doing at this point as “calling on the name of the Lord,” Ananias, God’s chosen messenger to Paul, did not think so. He did not tell Paul, “I see you have already called on God. Your sins are forgiven.” After three days of fasting and praying, Paul still was lost in his sins. Even though he obviously believed at this point, and had prayed to God, he had yet to “call on the name of the Lord” for salvation. When Ananias finally came to Paul, he told him: “Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (22:16). Ananias knew that Paul had not yet “called on the name of the Lord,” just as Peter knew that those on Pentecost had not done so before his command to “repent and be baptized.” Thus, Ananias instructed Paul to “be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The participle phrase, “calling on the name of the Lord,” describes what Paul was doing when he was baptized for the remission of his sins. Every non-Christian who desires to “call on the name of the Lord” to be saved, does so, not simply by saying, “Lord, Lord” (cf. Matthew 7:21), or just by wording a prayer to God (e.g., Paul—Acts 9; 22; cf. Romans 10:13-14), but by obeying God’s instructions to “repent and be baptized…in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38).

 

This is not to say that repentance and baptism have always been (or are always today) synonymous with “calling on the name of the Lord.” Abraham was not baptized when he “called upon the name of the Lord” (Genesis 12:8; cf. 4:26), because baptism was not demanded of God before New Testament times. And, as I mentioned earlier, when the New Testament describes people who are already Christians as “calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 9:14,21; 1 Corinthians 1:2), it certainly does not mean that Christians continually were being baptized for the remission of their sins after having been baptized to become a Christian (cf. 1 John 1:5-10). Depending on when and where the phrase is used, “calling on the name of the Lord” includes: (1) obedience to the gospel plan of salvation; (2) worshiping God; and (3) faithful service to the Lord (Bates, 1979, p. 5). However, it never is used in the sense that all the alien sinner must do in order to be saved is to cry out and say, “Lord, Lord, save me.”

 

Thus, the skeptic’s allegation that Matthew 7:21 contradicts Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 is unsubstantiated. And, the professed Christian who teaches that all one must do to be saved is just say the sinner’s prayer, is in error.

 

REFERENCES

 

Bales, James (1960), The Hub of the Bible—Or—Acts Two Analyzed (Shreveport, LA: Lambert Book House).

 

Bates, Bobby (1979), “Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall be Saved,” Firm Foundation, 96:5, March 20.

 

Brown, T. Pierce (1976), “Calling on His Name,” Firm Foundation, 93:5, July 20.

 

Morgan, Donald (2003), “Biblical Inconsistencies,” [On-line], URL: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/don...istencies.shtml.

 

Wells, Steve (2001), Skeptic’s Annotated Bible, [On-line], URL: http://www.Skepticsannotatedbible.com.

 

 

 

 

 

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[VballAceSpike]

Acts 18: 8:

8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

 

Just because Paul didn't do the baptizing doesn't mean that baptism wasn't required.....

 

 

Paul did baptize Crispus [1 Cor 1:14] Where did you get that he didn't baptize him? Was that from the apology website?

[RETIREDFAN1]

Paul did baptize Crispus [1 Cor 1:14] Where did you get that he didn't baptize him? Was that from the apology website?

 

Paul baptized Crispus, but he didn't baptize many of the Corinthians.....That would be from I Corinthians 1: 17....you quoted that one earlier....I highlighted the portion of the scripture I was referring to for you in the original post.... :thumbsup: ....

 

Paul was glad he personally didn't baptize any of the Corinthians because they had divided into cliques...with their focus not on Christ, but on men.....that is one of the things he is scolding the Corinthians about in his first letter to them.....This in no way indicates that baptism is not necessary or that baptism is not the point of salvation......

 

Here is the passage of scripture you quoted taken in context:

 

I Corinthians 1: 10 - 17:

10I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16(I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

[VballAceSpike]

Romans 10:9-10 (King James Version)

 

9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

10)For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

 

 

[RETIREDFAN1]

Romans 10:9-10 (King James Version)

 

9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

10)For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

 

Confession is one of the steps in God's plan for our salvation...if you read further in Romans 10, you'll see that hearing and believing are steps as well....Paul is teaching the Plan of Salvation....you can't pick and choose 1 or 2 verses out of context and try to find truth in them.....taken in the context of the entire Bible, you see that in order to receive the salvation being offered by God, we must do as He commands us......We must hear the word and believe it, we must confess our belief, that belief must be so deep that we are led to obedience by being baptized (Mark 16: 16, Acts 2: 38)....at that point, we are saved (I Peter 3:21), but we must continue to live faithfully the rest of our days......

 

When scripture is taken out of context, contradictions arise.....there are no contradictions when they are used in context....the confusion in the denominational world comes from the fact that false teachers have taken verses out of context to get them to say just about anything....I can prove to you using scripture, that you can't cut wood. IF I take the scriptures out of context.....

[nmjhh]

Belief = faith....you take it from there.......

 

The Bible doesn't speak on the second question, so I won't, except to say that the one being baptized is the one seeking salvation, not the one doing the baptizing....

 

 

One the first issue, are you saying that I will not go to heaven? I'm baptized just like you are.

 

On the second issue, so do you think it is ok for one to baptize him/herself?

[RETIREDFAN1]

One the first issue, are you saying that I will not go to heaven? I'm baptized just like you are.

 

On the second issue, so do you think it is ok for one to baptize him/herself?

 

 

On the first issue, IF someone didn't trust God enough to believe what He said in the verses below, then their baptism was not in accord with the Scriptures....and it is by the Word they will be judged, not by me.....

 

John 12: 47 - 49:

47If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.

 

On the second issue, what I think is irrelevant....the Bible doesn't speak on that topic specifically, and I won't be adding to it today...the Biblical reason for baptism is to have your sins washed away by the Blood of Christ through the miracle worked by the Holy Spirit as described in Romans and Colossians.....the focus is on the person being baptized, not the one doing the baptizing....

[VballAceSpike]

When I stand before God, if He asks me "what do I think saved me?" I will say "what Jesus did on the cross for me" straight from the heart.

 

I surely will not say "being baptized"

[RETIREDFAN1]

When I stand before God, if He asks me "what do I think saved me?" I will say "what Jesus did on the cross for me" straight from the heart.

 

I surely will not say "being baptized"

 

That is your choice...I will pray that you someday see that in order to gain access to God's Grace you have to actually do what God says......

[RonSwanson]

In Acts chapter ten Peter had preached the gospel to some gentile people and they were fillrd with the Holy Spirit. Peter then said can we forbid water baptism to these who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?....

[RETIREDFAN1]

In Acts chapter ten Peter had preached the gospel to some gentile people and they were fillrd with the Holy Spirit. Peter then said can we forbid water baptism to these who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?....

 

 

Good example...even though they had recieved the Holy Spirit, they were not saved UNTIL they were immersed..... :thumbsup:

[RonSwanson]

Good example...even though they had recieved the Holy Spirit, they were not saved UNTIL they were immersed..... :thumbsup:

Sprinkled?....... lol

[RETIREDFAN1]

Sprinkled?....... lol

 

Not even close..... :D

[VballAceSpike]

That is your choice...I will pray that you someday see that in order to gain access to God's Grace you have to actually do what God says......

 

I have already prayed for you.

[RETIREDFAN1]

I have already prayed for you.

 

Thank you..... :thumbsup:

[DaveTV1]

I see this thread has gone to baptism. I don't know of a single Christian faith that does not practice baptism. Why would one not want to be baptized if they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Is baptism necessary for all mankind to enter into heaven ? I believe that it is. Baptism is an integral part of the covenants that we make with God to become a part of His family. I can still remember the day that I was baptized, and I can't say that I understood all the covenants that I was making with God by doing so. I did understand that it was a burial, a rebirth, and a open proclamation of my faith in Jesus Christ.

 

As for sprinkling, I'm not going to condemn early Christians for practicing that part of baptism, because it was Biblical, and it was also a way to avoid human death during their time of Roman rule. I understand the history behind it, and I don't think that God condems those that were baptised in that manner. Do I feel that the Catholic Church abandoned baptism by immersion completely, yes, because they became more accustomed to being baptised in clandestine places.

 

I feel that we should all be baptized in the manner that Jesus Christ was. He set the example, and we should follow in His footsteps.

 

Regarding the criticism of my earlier post. I think about all the world, when it comes to their salvation. I was blessed to be born in the United States where Christianity still plays a major part in most peoples lives. I also believe that we are all spiritual children of Our Father in Heaven. God created every living thing, and every spiritual thing that exists. I know that I existed as a spirit, before I came to this earth and was clothed by the flesh, and gained a soul. God knew me before I came to this world, and I do know that. I think all of the people of the world are our brothers and sisters in a spiritual sense, that we were all created by God. I think God is going to be merciful unto the children and people of other Nations, that were born in them. I think all people will have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, whether they heard about Him or not. I'm not sure how that all works, but God is a loving God, and He is a forgiving God. To think that He would place a child in a place on earth, without giving them an opportunity to accept His Gospel at one time in their life is sentencing them to damnation. I've never seen God as being like that.

 

 

[RETIREDFAN1]

The only Biblical examples of baptism is immersion....sprinkling was added by man, and we are warned several times in the Scriptures not to add anything to or take anything away from the Word......