Locutus Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Exactly. I know that. And I agree with that. God knows all. But the question is, is it predetermined? If God knows the outcome is there an actual choice for that person. I will certainly read the article. Thanks. Maybe the question cannot be answered? Maybe there is no answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Maybe the question cannot be answered? Maybe there is no answer. There is an answer,but it may be beyond our ability to understand......there are some things God has chosen not to reveal to us......this may be one of them, but the article clears it up a little bit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonSwanson Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Maybe we should just move on to another topic that we can all agree on ....like the security of the believer...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 The Bible only speaks on how we are to praise God in our worship through singing (no instruments mentioned), so I will remain silent on what happens at home as well...... Do not be bitter as the brother of the Prodigal Son was, for did not the father of the house make a feast ? We are to rejoice when we gather for the return of the lost sheep to the fold of Christ. That is how forgiveness is. We are to rejoice, and sing praises unto God. When we really need to worry is found in Revelations 18. The verse that comes out is verse 22 "And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, or whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a mllstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; " Just as the Lord my God, loves the smell of fat cooking upon coals. God loves to hear His children sing praises unto Him. He wants us to dance, sing, and praise Him. We do not know everything that Jesus did while He was walking the earth. In actuality, we don't know how many times that He went to synagogue or to the temple. We only know of the times that He taught, or spoke at a few. Do you not think that Jesus Christ who is the Lord of the Sabbath, congregated with the people there ? I'm simply saying we don't know everything that Jesus Christ did. I can't speculate on it, because that would be wrong, to say that they didn't rejoice in song to God is preposterous. The apostles simply didn't expound on music, because it is a part of living. Music isn't a part of Salvation, and they really didn't have to expound on the subject. However to condem it, when there isn't a single scripture that condems music is wrong to me. The only time that music is condemned is when it is in praise of the world, and doesn't edify God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 <H2 id=passage_heading>Galatians 1:8-9 (King James Version)</H2> 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. ------ Agree or disagree these people have or have not preached another gospel. Those that preach a (black) liberation theology like at Chicago's Trinity United Church Of Christ (0bamas church in chitown) Westboro Baptist church- founder Fred Phelps dude Muslims- Believe that there was a Jesus but believe Mohammand was the last prophet becuase of a special revelation given to him by an angel Mormans-Believe that Jo Smith was the final prophet and he too was given special revelation by an angel. JW- It denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. This alone makes it non-Christian. To support its erring doctrines, the Watchtower organization (which is the author and teacher of all official Jehovah's Witness theology), has even altered the Bible to make it agree with its changing and non-Christian teachings The "social gospel" that is preached by a lot of socialist/communist that play on peoples emotion to help others by taking from others. Has anybody ever heard of this guy? .....Eric vonAnderseck because he is a self proclaimed apostle of God who says he is commissioned by God to reveal the "true and restored" gospel to the North American continent. ..... You need to work on your list. I can see fallacies with 2 of your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Maybe we should just move on to another topic that we can all agree on ....like the security of the believer...lol :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShadowKnows Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 You need to work on your list. I can see fallacies with 2 of your comments. Help a brother out if you do not mind? :flowers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShadowKnows Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 , and doctrine and religion ruin churches. I dont know about that last statement. I understand were you are coming from I just do not want you to think that doctrine is bad. Becuase doctrine is important to stay grounded in our faith. For example the doctrine of The Trinity (like the old hymn says God in three persons blessed Trinity) and The doctrine of The Incarnation (which answers the question could God become man without ceasing to be God? ) are two sound doctrines that Christians should know and believe so to help us if and when we come across people who might just be preaching to tickle our ears and as a lot of Churches/people are becoming Laodicea for us to know sound docterine is more important then ever. When it comes to religion we both know that there is one true religion and a lot of false ones and Ephesians 6:12 tells us who/what we are up agianst. And as always we should all put our faith before our denomination and should study to show ourselves approved.... (2 Timothy 2:15) and I almost forgut the docterine of justification, and sanctification. Just as long as the doctrine of spellazation or correct grammerazation is not discussed I will be ok. ,I do you think you went a lil over the top with your whole post towards colmes. but that is not what I wish to talk about becuase I am more inline with your belief on Baptism not being nessacery for salvation but something we should all want to do becuase of what Christ did for us as wretched sinners. It only makes since to show our apprecation to Jesus by following Him in Believers Baptism to show all those around that we are a new creation thru Christ work on the Cross and that the change they see in us is not becuase of us but God in us. Solia Deo Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxBroadcaster Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 This discussion in a nutshell is why I think Man and organized religion has done more damage for a person's relationship with God then anything else. People want to argue over the stupidest things in a religious book and worry more about being right inside the argument that they search for scripture to back their own argument up and take so many things out of context and edited down. IMO a person's walk with God ls a personal journey that God NEVEr intended to be hidden behind so many walls, and veils of man made rules. Instead of man simply putting God's word forth, we have convuluted the scriputre, edited what goes into the bible and what does not go in to the point now that It is not GOD's word, but man's watered down version of God's word. I just dont see a truly amazing God as I think he is really considered with trite things such as music being played in worship of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhornfan Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Well, after reading 4 pages of this thread, I've come to this conclusion: If you're not attending Colmes' church, you are doomed. If there is a verse from the Bible that contradicts his thoughts, it MUST be out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stSuperScot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Was Abraham still in a state of damnation when he believed God and was declared righteous even though he hadn't been circumcised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camuchs Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Was Abraham still in a state of damnation when he believed God and was declared righteous even though he hadn't been circumcised? very good analogy SuperScot! :highfive: Baptism is to the new covenant as circumcision was to the old one. When we take the whole Bible in context!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camuchs Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 ...and Acts 22: 16 shows us that calling on the name of the Lord includes baptism...... In Romans chapter 6, Paul gives us inspired insight into what baptism does for us......In Colossians chapter 2 and Titus Chapter 3 he expounds upon the same idea...... ....and Peter clearly states in I Peter 3: 21 that baptism is the point of salvation..... These verses don't contradict what Romans 10 says....they BUILD upon it in order to show us the ENTIRE Will of God on the matter...that is why we can't study the Bible by taking one or two verses out of context...we must keep them in the context of the entire Bible..... When kept in context and when understanding who is being spoken to; In 1 Peter chapter 3 -Jesus was speaking to the spirits in prison and he clearly says that baptism is NOT putting away "filth of the flesh"[sin] but the answer of good conscience toward God. God takes exact notice of the means and advantages people in all ages have had. As to the old world, Christ sent his Spirit; gave warning by Noah. But though the patience of God waits long, it will cease at last. And the spirits of disobedient sinners, as soon as they are out of their bodies, are committed to the prison of hell, where those that despised Noah's warning now are, and from whence there is no redemption. Noah's salvation in the ark upon the water, which carried him above the floods, set forth the salvation of all true believers. That temporal salvation by the ark was a type of the eternal salvation of believers by baptism of the Holy Spirit. To prevent mistakes, the apostle declares what he means by saving baptism; not the outward ceremony of washing with water, which, in itself, does no more than put away the filth of the flesh, but that baptism, of which the baptismal water formed the sign. Not the outward ordinance, but when a man, by the regeneration of the Spirit, was enabled to repent and profess faith, and purpose a new life, uprightly, and as in the presence of God. Let us beware that we rest not upon outward forms. Let us learn to look on the ordinances of God spiritually, and to inquire after the spiritual effect and working of them on our consciences. We would willingly have all religion reduced to outward things. But many who were baptized, and constantly attended the ordinances, have remained without Christ, died in their sins, and are now past recovery. Rest not then till thou art cleansed by the Spirit of Christ and the blood of Christ. His resurrection from the dead is that whereby we are assured of purifying and peace. When Jesus was baptized, God was pleased. Jesus didn't have to set an example, his whole life, death and resurrection was an example. - THE example !!!!!!! Amen!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stSuperScot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Matthew 5: 10 - 11: 10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Another example of your unparalleled arrogance. You claim now to be a prophet? Ha! You, sir (and I use that term generously) are nothing but a modern day Judaizer. You do not speak of Christ and Him crucified, but of a ritual, an act of man, which you cling to as if your deeds are what saves you. Again I say, ha! I can't wait to see the look of horror in your eyes when you see Jesus surrounded by those of simple faith and trust in The Man and not just members of your "one true church". I can see it now, Colmes, jaw dropped nearly to the golden street, standing there, gawking, as steel guitars and saxophones play Amazing Grace in the background. In his mind, the only thought Colmes can ponder, "Oh, the horror. The horror." Priceless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Instead of man simply putting God's word forth, we have convuluted the scriputre, edited what goes into the bible and what does not go in to the point now that It is not GOD's word, but man's watered down version of God's word. The Scriptures we read today are the same ones read from the first century on.....or do you not believe that God is powerful enough to make sure His message will be delivered for all time??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 If there is a verse from the Bible that contradicts his thoughts, it MUST be out of context. Please feel free to show one that contradicts what I have said when it is taken IN context...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Was Abraham still in a state of damnation when he believed God and was declared righteous even though he hadn't been circumcised? Keeping things in context....Abraham was called to leave his homeland in Genesis chapter 12. He obeyed and did it. Circumcision, and God's covenant with Abraham was not brought into effect until Genesis chapter 17, MUCH later in Abraham's life. A command that he obeyed.....Abraham's continued obedience to God during his lifetime is what allowed him to be declared righteous.......Abraham obeyed God all the days of his life as we can clearly see in the Scriptures.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stSuperScot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Please feel free to show one that contradicts what I have said when it is taken IN context...... Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." I could easily say that he who believes and goes to church will be saved. That is true. But it is belief that saves, not belief and going to church. Likewise, if you believe and read your Bible you'll be saved, but it isn't reading your Bible that saves you. Likewise, those who believe and are baptized will be saved. But the emphasis is on faith, not on baptism. Notice that Mark 16:16 says that he who does not believe will be condemned. It does not say that he who is not baptized will not be condemned. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then we should find somewhere in Scripture where it says something to the effect of if you're not baptized, you're not saved; but we find no such statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stSuperScot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Please feel free to show one that contradicts what I have said when it is taken IN context...... Acts 2:38, “And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” A. What is going on here is that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." It isn’t baptism that gets forgiveness of sins, but repentance. You see, repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized. B. The Oneness argument says that the word "for" means that you are getting baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sins. Again, if this is what is meant, then we are not receiving the forgiveness of sins when we believe, but after we have performed a ritual. There's no way around this. Is a ritual also required for our salvation? Is there a work we must perform in order to be saved? C. Biblically, a work is a ritual, a law that must be followed. Circumcision was just such a ritual, a ceremony. Paul condemns the Judaizers for adding that ritual, that ceremony to the grace of God. He condemns them because they added a ceremonial requirement to salvation. This is heresy and Paul rightly condemned it. D. Baptism is a ritual. It is a ceremony. If it is necessary for salvation, then a ritual must be observed in order to obtain Christ's forgiveness. This is salvation by grace and ritual, not salvation by grace through faith. E. Faith occurs when you believe. You are justified by faith when you believe, otherwise you're not justified by faith. So, this verse cannot mean that we have to be baptized in water in order to have our sins forgiven. F. It means that we are baptized to indentify with the forgiveness of sins. G. Mark 1:4, “John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” H. Also, if we are to understand this verse to mean that baptism is necessary for salvation, then we must also understand that repentance is necessary. But this is a problem because it would require that we be good in order to be saved - but this amounts to justification by works. Of course, we are supposed to repent of our sins, but it is not the repentance of sins that brings us salvation; rather, it is salvation that brings us repentance because unbelievers don't turn from their sins - only believers do - and only the saved seek to honor God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stSuperScot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Please feel free to show one that contradicts what I have said when it is taken IN context...... Acts 22:16, ‘And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’ A. What washes away their sins is not water, but calling on the name of Jesus. B. The verse does not say 'be baptized, washing away your sins.' It says be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name. What washes away our sins is calling on his name -- which would mean we are saved by grace through faith, not grace through faith in water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stSuperScot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Please feel free to show one that contradicts what I have said when it is taken IN context...... 1 Pet. 3:21, “And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,” A. This verse negates water baptism by saying the baptism that saves is not the kind that deals with the removal of dirt in the flesh. That is, it is not the issue of water which washes the body, but that baptism of the heart which is an appeal for a good conscience to God. B. Some think that the baptism corresponds to the Ark because it was the Ark that saved them, not the floodwaters. This is a possibility, but one of the problems with it is that this interpretation does not seem to stand grammatically since the antecedent of Baptism is most probably in reference to the water, not the Ark. But, water did not save Noah. This is why Peter excludes the issue of water baptism being the thing that saves us because he says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." Peter says that is not the application of water that saves us but a pledge of the good conscience. Therefore, baptism here most probably represents the breaking away of the old sinful life and entrance into the new life, the same way that the flood waters in Noah's time was the destruction of the sinful way and, once through it, entrance into his new life. C. Peter's explanatory comment shows us that the act of physical baptism is not what saves, but the "baptism of appeal to God." This appeal to God is by faith, the same as Noah's faith in God led him to build the Ark, enter it, and remain in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." I could easily say that he who believes and goes to church will be saved. That is true. But it is belief that saves, not belief and going to church. Likewise, if you believe and read your Bible you'll be saved, but it isn't reading your Bible that saves you. Likewise, those who believe and are baptized will be saved. But the emphasis is on faith, not on baptism. Notice that Mark 16:16 says that he who does not believe will be condemned. It does not say that he who is not baptized will not be condemned. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then we should find somewhere in Scripture where it says something to the effect of if you're not baptized, you're not saved; but we find no such statement. You could easily say that, but you are NOT Jesus Christ, so your words would have no power or force.....JESUS stated in the passage above that the one who believes AND IS baptized will be saved.....the one who does not believe will not be baptized anyway, so there was no need to include that in the second half of the verse...... Mark 16: 16 does indeed say that if we are not baptized, we will not be saved....our faith must be to the depth that we are willing to DO what God commanded....if that faith is not to the level where one believes that God meant exactly what God said, then one will not allow himself to be baptized for the proper reason, anyway, if at all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 H. Also, if we are to understand this verse to mean that baptism is necessary for salvation, then we must also understand that repentance is necessary. But this is a problem because it would require that we be good in order to be saved - but this amounts to justification by works. Of course, we are supposed to repent of our sins, but it is not the repentance of sins that brings us salvation; rather, it is salvation that brings us repentance because unbelievers don't turn from their sins - only believers do - and only the saved seek to honor God. All of these have been discussed in previous posts.... Repentance IS necessary for salvation right along with confession, faith, and obedience...All of these working together with the power of the Holy Spirit and the Grace of God are what save us....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stSuperScot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Mark 16: 16 does indeed say that if we are not baptized, we will not be saved....our faith must be to the depth that we are willing to DO what God commanded....if that faith is not to the level where one believes that God meant exactly what God said, then one will not allow himself to be baptized for the proper reason, anyway, if at all.... Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." You are adding to what is written that which you WANT to be there. ~~~Hmmm! I wonder what that makes old Colmes????~~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Another example of your unparalleled arrogance. You claim now to be a prophet? Ha! You, sir (and I use that term generously) are nothing but a modern day Judaizer. You do not speak of Christ and Him crucified, but of a ritual, an act of man, which you cling to as if your deeds are what saves you. Again I say, ha! I can't wait to see the look of horror in your eyes when you see Jesus surrounded by those of simple faith and trust in The Man and not just members of your "one true church". I can see it now, Colmes, jaw dropped nearly to the golden street, standing there, gawking, as steel guitars and saxophones play Amazing Grace in the background. In his mind, the only thought Colmes can ponder, "Oh, the horror. The horror." Priceless! I Peter 3: 13 - 17: 13Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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