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Adrian Beltre Deal Premature


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And yet you want them to re-sign Guerrero? They gambled last year and it paid off. In my opinion, it paid off because he had something to prove to the Angels.

 

I wouldn't count on that this season from him. I would gamble on injuries and not much production.

That's not an impossibility. I'm not going to argue that topic, but I will say that you shouldn't count on injuries. Have insurance plan for them, but never count on them.

 

Going back to your numbers....

 

2005-2009

 

Young - AVG .311 - HR 59 - RBI 370 - RUNS 389 - AB 2643 - 2B 165 - SLG .449

Beltre - AVG .266 - HR 103 - RBI 396 - RUNS 372 - AB 2823 - 2B 172 - SLG .442

VladG - AVG .319 - HR 119 - RBI 440 - RUNS 361 - AB 2242 - 2B 139 - SLG .546

 

Anything I'm missing here? What is it you're wanting me to see? I don't see dominance by Beltre, only a 45 point lower batting average.

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Agree with that, but you'll still have to plug someone in at DH when Young's not there. Before you mention Murphy, you have to realize that with Hamilton and Cruz in the outfield, for 2/3 of the season Murphy is going to be a full time outfielder. I'm still not sold on Borbon either. I don't think he's going to cut it. My guess is half way through the season we'll see him traded, sent to AAA, or outright released.

 

 

I dont think Texas is done..they IMO need a right handed bat in the OF

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Own it dude. The fact that you continue to bring up the '04 and '10 seasons, knowing full well that those were his big contract seasons. proves that.

The only thing that is proven is that you're assuming something that isn't true. If I wanted to blame it on contract seasons I would. I never claimed that he was a slacker, the biggest reason I don't claim that is because I DON'T THINK HE'S A SLACKER.

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That's not an impossibility. I'm not going to argue that topic, but I will say that you shouldn't count on injuries. Have insurance plan for them, but never count on them.

 

Going back to your numbers....

 

2005-2009

 

Young - AVG .311 - HR 59 - RBI 370 - RUNS 389 - AB 2643 - 2B 165 - SLG .449

Beltre - AVG .266 - HR 103 - RBI 396 - RUNS 372 - AB 2823 - 2B 172 - SLG .442

VladG - AVG .319 - HR 119 - RBI 440 - RUNS 361 - AB 2242 - 2B 139 - SLG .546

 

Anything I'm missing here? What is it you're wanting me to see? I don't see dominance by Beltre, only a 45 point lower batting average.

 

 

if ur going to only talk about the offense then I agree..but that is also short sighted IMO..we are not talking about just a defensive upgrade here,,we are talking about going from one of the worst defensive 3B to one of the best..IMO that offsets the difference in offensive production from the DH..meaning I will take 8 less HR and 14 less RBI to have a shutdown defensive 3B who still can provide pop at the plate

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if ur going to only talk about the offense then I agree..but that is also short sighted IMO..we are not talking about just a defensive upgrade here,,we are talking about going from one of the worst defensive 3B to one of the best..IMO that offsets the difference in offensive production from the DH..meaning I will take 8 less HR and 14 less RBI to have a shutdown defensive 3B who still can provide pop at the plate

...and that's the only thing keeping me from blowing my gasket. Although it doesn't seem like it in this thread, I'm trying to be reserved about the deal. I'm discussing it because it's a fun topic with tons of stats to be thrown around. Right now I'm resistant to this move, but I'm not saying I can't be pursuaded otherwise with results. But looking at the numbers, I just don't know.

 

FWIW...Greinke is the one who brought out the stats page. I was just entertaining him...lol

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That's not an impossibility. I'm not going to argue that topic, but I will say that you shouldn't count on injuries. Have insurance plan for them, but never count on them.

 

Going back to your numbers....

 

2005-2009

 

Young - AVG .311 - HR 59 - RBI 370 - RUNS 389 - AB 2643 - 2B 165 - SLG .449

Beltre - AVG .266 - HR 103 - RBI 396 - RUNS 372 - AB 2823 - 2B 172 - SLG .442

VladG - AVG .319 - HR 119 - RBI 440 - RUNS 361 - AB 2242 - 2B 139 - SLG .546

 

Anything I'm missing here? What is it you're wanting me to see? I don't see dominance by Beltre, only a 45 point lower batting average.

 

 

Unlike you, I'm not looking at Texas signing Beltre to replace Young. Forget Vlad from this discussion because he's not relevant anymore. Anything he gives you is icing on the cake.

 

I look at this as Texas adding a player that is solid and will do nothing but improve the team. With Young, they have the luxury of a player who is willing to move to a different position in order to make this a smooth transition. The numbers I'm trying to get you to see are those that prove Beltre has been highly productive as a third baseman over the course of his entire career. At his age there's no reason to think that's going to change anytime soon.

 

I believe Young should play 1B, and I bet that's what ends up happening. Right now, he's a better overall option there than Moreland.

 

Regardless, you've added a high-level third baseman to your team and kept Young in the process.

 

Despite any problems people have with the contract terms, you did that without overpaying for Beltre.

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...and that's the only thing keeping me from blowing my gasket. Although it doesn't seem like it in this thread, I'm trying to be reserved about the deal. I'm discussing it because it's a fun topic with tons of stats to be thrown around. Right now I'm resistant to this move, but I'm not saying I can't be pursuaded otherwise with results. But looking at the numbers, I just don't know.

 

FWIW...Greinke is the one who brought out the stats page. I was just entertaining him...lol

 

And, I'm not even a Rangers fan. I'm a Sox fan and watched Beltre more than 100 times last season. Had they not been able to do the trade with Gonzalez at this point, Beltre would've been back in Boston.

 

It did start out rough for him defensively last season. I believe he had 6-7 errors in April alone. After that, though, his defense was very solid.

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I don't see it as Beltre replacing Young either. I said what has essentially happened is they replaced Beltre with Vlad. Those are the numbers to be compared.

 

Also...he has only been "highly productive" for two years out of 13. The odds aren't great that he will have those seasons with regularity just because he crossed the Red River.

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I don't see it as Beltre replacing Young either. I said what has essentially happened is they replaced Beltre with Vlad. Those are the numbers to be compared.

 

Also...he has only been "highly productive" for two years out of 13. The odds aren't great that he will have those seasons with regularity just because he crossed the Red River.

 

Compared to other third basemen, and not players at every position, you're wrong. That's why I provided you that link.

 

And if you want to compare him to Vlad, that's definitely a no-brainer.

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And, I'm not even a Rangers fan. I'm a Sox fan and watched Beltre more than 100 times last season. Had they not been able to do the trade with Gonzalez at this point, Beltre would've been back in Boston.

 

It did start out rough for him defensively last season. I believe he had 6-7 errors in April alone. After that, though, his defense was very solid.

I'm not saying I don't like Beltre on the team. What I'm saying is that he is not worth the money spent on him. That $19 Mil a year would have gone a long way in keeping Hamilton, Lewis, and Wilson in Rangers' uniforms. It's almost guarenteed that at least one of those guys is going to have to be sacrificed because of the price tag. Having that nearly $20 million a year to spend on them could be the difference in keeping them here or them going to the Yanks.

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Compared to other third basemen, and not players at every position, you're wrong. That's why I provided you that link.

 

And if you want to compare him to Vlad, that's definitely a no-brainer.

And it's Vlad who he should be compared with. If not for Beltre coming here, we still have Vlad in the line-up. Young's defense possibly would have improved as he is the hardest worker in baseball (according to his peers), but I realize that's no guarentee. He may have gotten worse. I just don't think that would have been the case.

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I'm not saying I don't like Beltre on the team. What I'm saying is that he is not worth the money spent on him. That $19 Mil a year would have gone a long way in keeping Hamilton, Lewis, and Wilson in Rangers' uniforms. It's almost guarenteed that at least one of those guys is going to have to be sacrificed because of the price tag. Having that nearly $20 million a year to spend on them could be the difference in keeping them here or them going to the Yanks.

 

 

Again Greenberg has said when they were pursuing Lee that the money would NOT have anything to do with resigning players in the future and that was when it looked like Lee would take 120 million

 

 

I look at like this

 

Beltre replaces Young's Defense..HUGE HUGE HUGE upgrade

 

young replaces Vlad's offense..small downgrade, but really not as big as you think with where Vlad is in his career..plus it improves depth of infield

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...and let's not leave Chris Davis out of the talks. He can still have an impact. He's going to wreck shop in AAA. I don't think there's any question about that. One of two things can happen. He can be called up again and finally find his groove again in the majors, or they can trade him from AAA, touting his numbers in the minors. Either way, something good is going to happen with him, IMO.

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I'm not saying I don't like Beltre on the team. What I'm saying is that he is not worth the money spent on him. That $19 Mil a year would have gone a long way in keeping Hamilton, Lewis, and Wilson in Rangers' uniforms. It's almost guarenteed that at least one of those guys is going to have to be sacrificed because of the price tag. Having that nearly $20 million a year to spend on them could be the difference in keeping them here or them going to the Yanks.

 

These are the contract numbers for the five years:

 

2011: $14 million

2012: $15 million

2013: $16 million

2014: $17 million

2015: $18 million

 

If the sixth year option kicks in, the salary is $16 million.

 

Copied from a story on ESPN/Dallas site:

 

 

 

The Rangers do have a new ownership group in place that is committed to much higher payrolls than the last several years, they are expecting a huge jump in attendance, corporate sponsorships and other revenue streams after going to the World Series in 2010. The club also has a new lucrative television contract kicking in after the 2014 season with a significant "signing bonus" being paid up front. The Rangers even have huge advertising signs draped outside the Ballpark in Arlington in preparation for next month's Super Bowl at the NFL stadium down the street. All of that is factored in when the Rangers sit down and project their payroll for 2011 and beyond. But the Rangers made it clear they would be interested in signing certain players -- especially Hamilton -- to long-term contracts when they were pursuing Lee, and that hasn't changed now that they've signed Beltre.

 

Sounds like to me the ball is in the court of Rangers' fans. If you continue to show up as you did last season, the money will be there.

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It seems some of you guys are missing the big picture. Comparing Young and Beltre is NOT the issue. This is a dumb move by the Rangers because the Rangers are not in dire NEED of a good 3rd baseman. They NEED starting pitching, but have now blown their wad on possibly a few more hrs/rbis and a little more range. That will not win them a championship, as the Rangers have proven time and time again through the years. Sad that they haven't learned from their own mistakes.

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...and let's not leave Chris Davis out of the talks. He can still have an impact. He's going to wreck shop in AAA. I don't think there's any question about that. One of two things can happen. He can be called up again and finally find his groove again in the majors, or they can trade him from AAA, touting his numbers in the minors. Either way, something good is going to happen with him, IMO.

 

It's okay to have a dream.

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Again Greenberg has said when they were pursuing Lee that the money would NOT have anything to do with resigning players in the future and that was when it looked like Lee would take 120 million

Again...do you expect him to say, "If we sign Lee, our money will be shot and we're done."? Of course not. He's going to say exactly what we want to hear.

 

 

I look at like this

 

Beltre replaces Young's Defense..HUGE HUGE HUGE upgrade

 

young replaces Vlad's offense..small downgrade, but really not as big as you think with where Vlad is in his career..plus it improves depth of infield

I definitely wouldn't go as far to say HUGE HUGE HUGE upgrade in defense, but yes, there is certainly an upgrade there. For your second point, Young is not protection in the line up for other hitters like Vlad is. Neither is Beltre. That is one of the intangibles many analysts like to talk about.

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It seems some of you guys are missing the big picture. Comparing Young and Beltre is NOT the issue. This is a dumb move by the Rangers because the Rangers are not in dire NEED of a good 3rd baseman. They NEED starting pitching, but have now blown their wad on possibly a few more hrs/rbis and a little more range. That will not win them a championship, as the Rangers have proven time and time again through the years. Sad that they haven't learned from their own mistakes.

 

Who are these starting pitchers that were available this offseason?

 

If they would've signed Lee at the terms being reported, that would've been the epitome of blowing their wad.

 

The only other big name I can think of is Pavano. Would you want them to sign him?

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I'm not saying I don't like Beltre on the team. What I'm saying is that he is not worth the money spent on him. That $19 Mil a year would have gone a long way in keeping Hamilton, Lewis, and Wilson in Rangers' uniforms. It's almost guarenteed that at least one of those guys is going to have to be sacrificed because of the price tag. Having that nearly $20 million a year to spend on them could be the difference in keeping them here or them going to the Yanks.

$19 mil a year? 80/5= $16. 96/6= $16. It's $16 mil a year any way you slice it. And since he will effectively replace Vlad's production (who would have cost at least $8 mil next year), he is costing a incremental $8 mil a year for his defense and the lineup flexibility and depth that MY at DH gives you.

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Sounds like to me the ball is in the court of Rangers' fans. If you continue to show up as you did last season, the money will be there.

Especially when the ticket prices explode. The only thing that would keep me out of the Ballpark in Arlington is when they jack the prices up to stupid levels.

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Who are these starting pitchers that were available this offseason?

 

If they would've signed Lee at the terms being reported, that would've been the epitome of blowing their wad.

 

The only other big name I can think of is Pavano. Would you want them to sign him?

 

I really don't know what pitcher(s) they should sign, but the Beltre deal will not get the Rangers back to what they achieved this past season. History has proven this many times with the Rangers.

 

3rd base was not a need..period. Bad investment

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For your second point, Young is not protection in the line up for other hitters like Vlad is. Neither is Beltre. That is one of the intangibles many analysts like to talk about.

 

If Vlad is so great, and can still provide all of this "protection," why is he still unemployed?

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Again...do you expect him to say, "If we sign Lee, our money will be shot and we're done."? Of course not. He's going to say exactly what we want to hear.

 

 

 

I definitely wouldn't go as far to say HUGE HUGE HUGE upgrade in defense, but yes, there is certainly an upgrade there. For your second point, Young is not protection in the line up for other hitters like Vlad is. Neither is Beltre. That is one of the intangibles many analysts like to talk about.

 

 

Greenberg has been a straight shooter so far, so until he lies I take what he says as being honest..he is not Tom Hicks

 

and yea I would go with it as a HUGE HUGE HUGE upgrade..Young has been at the bottom to last in defensive stats for 3B...Beltre at the top

 

Going back to money...Norm Hitzges during the Lee chase brought up a point..as much as Greenberg is the "face" as an owner, the real important people are the few silent partners who are Billionares who have told Greenberg they are more than willing to use their own money to upgrade the team and the payroll..that is what is happening now..the te Beltre money like the Lee money is really not even being factor into the resigning of players in the future

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$19 mil a year? 80/5= $16. 96/6= $16. It's $16 mil a year any way you slice it. And since he will effectively replace Vlad's production (who would have cost at least $8 mil next year), he is costing a incremental $8 mil a year for his defense and the lineup flexibility and depth that MY at DH gives you.

I stand corrected on the $19 mil. Math wasn't my strong suit apparently...lol

 

But how do you figure he'll replace Vlad's production? That's kinda funny. Once in his career has he even approached Vlad numbers.

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