How do you judge a QB in the NFL?

[DaveTV1]

 

In the Dallas losses you pointed out, which were losses that could be pinned on the defense of the Dallas Cowboys?

Just as easily with the Cowboys not having a Captain Comeback, but a fan darling who doesn't know what it takes to win. Great we've just signed 30 year old Brandon Weeden. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/17/cowboys-sign-brandon-weeden/ . Okay, I'm on board, yippee ! hooray, we're on our way ! Give me something to cheer about. I'll admit I did with Romo, early, then he fell apart and showed his mettle.

 

Either you win or you don't in football, and if the ball is given away via turnovers the quarterback still controls the offense.

[spacegolfer]

You stated Indy did, and why I showed how many points that they gave up to Denver and Seattle. Let's look at Indy's schedule last year, their vaunted defense gave up 30 points to St. Louis, 27 to Tennessee, 40 to Arizona, and 42 to Cincinnati not counting the other two games I listed. In 2013 they were the 19th ranked Defense giving up 357.1 yards per game, but were ranked 8th in points allowed in the lowly AFC South with 21 points per game. It's sort of amazing that we fire our Defensive Coordinater and he has the 4th best defense in the league.

 

Let's look at Dallas again. Lost to Kansas City by 1 point, lost to San Diego by 9, Denver by 3, 1 point to Detroit, New Orleans by 32 (Ryan Revenge), 17 to Chicago because it was too cold, 1 point to Green Bay that we should have won but gave away with a poor game plan, and 2 points to Philly with Orton imitating Romo. Dallas could have been easily 12-4 last year, if they would have put the ball in the endzone with a solid quarterback leading the team. Romo is a live wire, you never know what he's going to do. I realize some people like that, but it doesn't produce wins in the NFL. Don Meredith, Kenny Stabler, Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, and Brett Favre proved that simply winging it doesn't produce overall success, except for a season or two.

Dallas was 5th in the league in scoring last year. Scoring was not a problem. You just failed on that point. Yes running the ball in several situations might have produced more. The Cowboys threw only 12 int's last year. Only 9 teams threw less. San Fran. and Kansas City both threw for 8 int's. Indianapolis an Kansas City both give up 21 and 19 points respectfully. You also just failed on Tony Romo turning the ball over. He is clearly in the top part of the league in that area as well.

 

Now you want to look at some defense? Dallas had the 7th worse scoring defense in the league. They gave up 27 points a game. That is only 3 points a game from the worse team in the NFL. Meanwhile Seattle only allowed 14.4 per game. Where in anyone's right mind can they fault our qb for this? Dave this is the reason there were so many losses. We all know why the defense was so bad. It was simply injuries. Too many in the same positions. It is hard to win when you have so many defenders playing that were not even on a team.

 

Dave, you said we fired our Defensive Coordinator and he had the 4th best scoring defense in the league. NO! He had the 9th worse scoring defense in the league.with Dallas. You cannot just blanket a statement like that when there is no way of proving he would have had a better defense with Dallas this year. I have no doubt myself that it would have been just as atrocious as ours was this year. The problem was not and is not the coaching. Did I mention something about injuries?

 

Dave.... you can talk till you are blue in the face and it will never change the fact that Tony Romo was not and is not the problem that is keeping Dallas from winning. NO ONE on here is saying he is the very best there is. He just is not the problem and is good enough even in the clutch to win.

 

Dallas did not sign Brandon Weeden to take over Tony Romo's position. He was hired on to give Dallas more help in the pre-season so as not to wear down our QB. Even if Orton retires Dallas needs some kind of veteran qb to take over. It is a lot more logical than trying to get someone in the draft. Dallas needs to focus on defense in the draft and not wasting money on a qb early. They can still draft one later and hope he has the tools to get better and learn the system.

[DoubleTeam]

Dave, you woke him up.

[buckeyefan1984]

Just as easily with the Cowboys not having a Captain Comeback, but a fan darling who doesn't know what it takes to win. Great we've just signed 30 year old Brandon Weeden. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/17/cowboys-sign-brandon-weeden/ . Okay, I'm on board, yippee ! hooray, we're on our way ! Give me something to cheer about. I'll admit I did with Romo, early, then he fell apart and showed his mettle.

 

Either you win or you don't in football, and if the ball is given away via turnovers the quarterback still controls the offense.

 

But, the quarterback doesn't control the defense. So just for the sake of argument, Detroit drives the length of the field after Romo gives Dallas the lead, and scores the winning touchdown on a quarterback sneak by Stafford....

 

and that's Romo's fault?

 

Is THAT what you're really trying to say here?

[buckeyefan1984]

Just as easily with the Cowboys not having a Captain Comeback, but a fan darling who doesn't know what it takes to win. Great we've just signed 30 year old Brandon Weeden. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/17/cowboys-sign-brandon-weeden/ . Okay, I'm on board, yippee ! hooray, we're on our way ! Give me something to cheer about. I'll admit I did with Romo, early, then he fell apart and showed his mettle.

 

Either you win or you don't in football, and if the ball is given away via turnovers the quarterback still controls the offense.

 

I'll do you one better. Brees drives the Saints down the field in what was supposed to be a game winning score. However, Brady drives the Pats down and they score a game winning touchdown.

 

Now then, whose fault does the loss go on?

 

Brees or the Saints defense?

[spacegolfer]

 

I'll do you one better. Brees drives the Saints down the field in what was supposed to be a game winning score. However, Brady drives the Pats down and they score a game winning touchdown.

 

Now then, whose fault does the loss go on?

 

Brees or the Saints defense?

BREES! :) :wacko: The same rules must apply for all QB's! right?

[DaveTV1]

 

In the Dallas losses you pointed out, which were losses that could be pinned on the defense of the Dallas Cowboys?

They could be pinned on both the Offense and the Defense. The Chiefs, Broncos (who were giving up points), Lions, Green Bay, and Philly were the offenses fault. Romo threw three straight incomplete passes to end the Cowboys chances vs. the Chiefs and we had to settle for a 53 yard field goal, the defense held, but not with enough time for another shot for the offense. Against Denver the tie was 48-48 with Dallas at the 14, Romo throws the ball after being stepped on giving the Broncos time to run out the clock and kick a field goal with :02 left on the clock. Detroit - we had the ball with 1:24 left in the 4th quarter leading 27-24, Detroit had 2 timeouts. We ran the ball three times with a loss of -3 by Joseph Randle, we run it again with Phillip Tanner for -1 (2nd Down we should have passed, but the Cowboys are trying to run out the clock), 3rd down we run it again for a 9 yard gain by Tanner, a field goal only put us up by 6, why not run it again from fourth and 5 and knock off an additional 25 seconds off the clock ? Instead we kick the field goal, and give Stafford and Megatron 1:02 instead of :42 to work their magic. Green Bay game we were up 26-3 at the half. We only rush the ball 7 times in the 2nd half, and Romo threw 2 interceptions in the final three minutes of the game. Philly - Orton throws an interception with 1:49 left in the game. Season over 8-8. Those losses were all the Offenses fault. Romo is the field general, and if he can't handle it then we need to find someone else. Weeden isn't the answer.

[DaveTV1]

Dallas was 5th in the league in scoring last year. Scoring was not a problem. You just failed on that point. Yes running the ball in several situations might have produced more. The Cowboys threw only 12 int's last year. Only 9 teams threw less. San Fran. and Kansas City both threw for 8 int's. Indianapolis an Kansas City both give up 21 and 19 points respectfully. You also just failed on Tony Romo turning the ball over. He is clearly in the top part of the league in that area as well.

 

Now you want to look at some defense? Dallas had the 7th worse scoring defense in the league. They gave up 27 points a game. That is only 3 points a game from the worse team in the NFL. Meanwhile Seattle only allowed 14.4 per game. Where in anyone's right mind can they fault our qb for this? Dave this is the reason there were so many losses. We all know why the defense was so bad. It was simply injuries. Too many in the same positions. It is hard to win when you have so many defenders playing that were not even on a team.

 

Dave, you said we fired our Defensive Coordinator and he had the 4th best scoring defense in the league. NO! He had the 9th worse scoring defense in the league.with Dallas. You cannot just blanket a statement like that when there is no way of proving he would have had a better defense with Dallas this year. I have no doubt myself that it would have been just as atrocious as ours was this year. The problem was not and is not the coaching. Did I mention something about injuries?

 

Dave.... you can talk till you are blue in the face and it will never change the fact that Tony Romo was not and is not the problem that is keeping Dallas from winning. NO ONE on here is saying he is the very best there is. He just is not the problem and is good enough even in the clutch to win.

 

Dallas did not sign Brandon Weeden to take over Tony Romo's position. He was hired on to give Dallas more help in the pre-season so as not to wear down our QB. Even if Orton retires Dallas needs some kind of veteran qb to take over. It is a lot more logical than trying to get someone in the draft. Dallas needs to focus on defense in the draft and not wasting money on a qb early. They can still draft one later and hope he has the tools to get better and learn the system.

Ryan was teaching his defense to Dallas, and they were picking it up, but Jerry wanted to get rid of him too soon, even Darren Woodson stated that fact. Stats mean nothing to me, and they never will. Losses happen because of situations during the game, not because you can match this offensive stat up with this defensive stat. I just showed above what the Cowboys did wrong in not winning the games that would have given us the NFC East title, we still would have been one and done, but we could have made the playoffs last year. I showed that he cost the game against Kansas City with incompletions and against Green Bay with interceptions. We could have won against Detroit if we would have run the clock down more or thrown a pass on 2nd down to get closer to the sticks. Dez had a great game against Detroit, but let's run it 3 times and kick a field goal.

[DaveTV1]

 

But, the quarterback doesn't control the defense. So just for the sake of argument, Detroit drives the length of the field after Romo gives Dallas the lead, and scores the winning touchdown on a quarterback sneak by Stafford....

 

and that's Romo's fault?

 

Is THAT what you're really trying to say here?

We already had the lead. Romo has trumped Garrett many times, but didn't in that game ?

 

I forgot to address Brandon Weeden in my last post regarding spacegolfer's post. Weeden wasn't brought in to replace Romo, but I don't even know why we signed him. I realize he was a 1st round pick, but so was Ryan Leaf.

[spacegolfer]

We already had the lead. Romo has trumped Garrett many times, but didn't in that game ?

 

I forgot to address Brandon Weeden in my last post regarding spacegolfer's post. Weeden wasn't brought in to replace Romo, but I don't even know why we signed him. I realize he was a 1st round pick, but so was Ryan Leaf.

First off on every one of the examples you give on the previous posts I can go back and forth with you all night and prove my points in each of those games. Your mind is closed as to any reason so I won't bother.

 

Second. Dallas did not sign Brandon Weeden to replace Romo. You do not know why we sign him is because you either do not keep up with what is reported or you fail to see logic. Dallas only had one other QB at the time of signing. Orton may or may not retire. If he does then Romo would have been the ONLY qb for Dallas. Even if Orton does not retire then he will be able to throw plenty of passes helping Dallas get ready for the season. That way you do not blow out arms on Romo or Orton.

 

Now if you knew all this and just did not like the pick, then you should have said so. There are plenty of other qb's out there and every single one of them has baggage just like Weeden. There is not one of them that I would want Dallas to have as a starter if Romo went down. Nothing long term in any of them. So Weeden is the cheapest and very able qb for them.

[buckeyefan1984]

They could be pinned on both the Offense and the Defense. The Chiefs, Broncos (who were giving up points), Lions, Green Bay, and Philly were the offenses fault. Romo threw three straight incomplete passes to end the Cowboys chances vs. the Chiefs and we had to settle for a 53 yard field goal, the defense held, but not with enough time for another shot for the offense. Against Denver the tie was 48-48 with Dallas at the 14, Romo throws the ball after being stepped on giving the Broncos time to run out the clock and kick a field goal with :02 left on the clock. Detroit - we had the ball with 1:24 left in the 4th quarter leading 27-24, Detroit had 2 timeouts. We ran the ball three times with a loss of -3 by Joseph Randle, we run it again with Phillip Tanner for -1 (2nd Down we should have passed, but the Cowboys are trying to run out the clock), 3rd down we run it again for a 9 yard gain by Tanner, a field goal only put us up by 6, why not run it again from fourth and 5 and knock off an additional 25 seconds off the clock ? Instead we kick the field goal, and give Stafford and Megatron 1:02 instead of :42 to work their magic. Green Bay game we were up 26-3 at the half. We only rush the ball 7 times in the 2nd half, and Romo threw 2 interceptions in the final three minutes of the game. Philly - Orton throws an interception with 1:49 left in the game. Season over 8-8. Those losses were all the Offenses fault. Romo is the field general, and if he can't handle it then we need to find someone else. Weeden isn't the answer.

 

If you want to fault the offense and defense in the losses, then I have no complaints. However, if you score 48 points in a game and still lose, then that falls on the defense. The Detroit game, falls on the defense. Now then, the Green Bay loss falls on the offense and the play calling. The loss to Philly to end the season also falls on the offense as it was Orton who threw the final pick.

 

Now then, the 8 losses were not the fault of the offense. A few of them, yes, could be attributed to the offensive play calling and execution. But if you want to pin the 8 losses on Romo then by all means, we'll take them one game at a time and I will prove you wrong on the majority of them.

[spacegolfer]

We already had the lead. Romo has trumped Garrett many times, but didn't in that game ?

 

I forgot to address Brandon Weeden in my last post regarding spacegolfer's post. Weeden wasn't brought in to replace Romo, but I don't even know why we signed him. I realize he was a 1st round pick, but so was Ryan Leaf.

Just to point out something. Just because Weeden was a bust in Cleveland does not mean he cannot excel in Dallas. Players frequently change teams and have stellar seasons or careers with the new one. On the other hand top players can go to another team and just bust there. There is no concrete formula as to why one way or the other. Change of scenery can be drastic either way. At least Dallas has Weeden for very little risk.

[spacegolfer]

 

If you want to fault the offense and defense in the losses, then I have no complaints. However, if you score 48 points in a game and still lose, then that falls on the defense. The Detroit game, falls on the defense. Now then, the Green Bay loss falls on the offense and the play calling. The loss to Philly to end the season also falls on the offense as it was Orton who threw the final pick.

 

Now then, the 8 losses were not the fault of the offense. A few of them, yes, could be attributed to the offensive play calling and execution. But if you want to pin the 8 losses on Romo then by all means, we'll take them one game at a time and I will prove you wrong on the majority of them.

The main issue here is Dave fails to acknowledge that Dallas has had a bad defense for the last couple years because of injuries. He seems to think that only Tony Romo is the one losing for Dallas. LOL! It never has been that way for any qb in history. When a game is won by Dallas he will never give credit to Tony Romo. It would be in-spite of him.

 

Dave talks about situations in the games determine what is done. Situations are also determined by STATS. Even that does not guarantee success. I do not understand why certain plays were called during some of the games. At the same time there are stupid plays called by ..... say Bill Belicheck and they work sometimes. All of a sudden they were great calls. ROFL! Yet, the stats or situation show that they should not have even tried them.

[DaveTV1]

First off on every one of the examples you give on the previous posts I can go back and forth with you all night and prove my points in each of those games. Your mind is closed as to any reason so I won't bother.

 

Second. Dallas did not sign Brandon Weeden to replace Romo. You do not know why we sign him is because you either do not keep up with what is reported or you fail to see logic. Dallas only had one other QB at the time of signing. Orton may or may not retire. If he does then Romo would have been the ONLY qb for Dallas. Even if Orton does not retire then he will be able to throw plenty of passes helping Dallas get ready for the season. That way you do not blow out arms on Romo or Orton.

 

Now if you knew all this and just did not like the pick, then you should have said so. There are plenty of other qb's out there and every single one of them has baggage just like Weeden. There is not one of them that I would want Dallas to have as a starter if Romo went down. Nothing long term in any of them. So Weeden is the cheapest and very able qb for them.

Yours is as well, because it's always the Defenses fault, the offensive lines fault, or with your logic since it's all luck me wearing my Roger Staubach Jersey instead of my Tony Dorsett jersey on any given Sunday or Monday Night.

 

At least we brought Weeden in at the league minimum, but he's the same as Tim Couch to me. Some are specualting that Orton may retire, but that's a $3.4 million hit on the salary cap next year. http://nfl.si.com/2014/03/17/brandon-weeden-deal-dallas-cowboys/ even if he does.

 

As I've said, I'd be shouting Romo praises if the Cowboys had done something during his tenure, but we haven't.

[DaveTV1]

 

If you want to fault the offense and defense in the losses, then I have no complaints. However, if you score 48 points in a game and still lose, then that falls on the defense. The Detroit game, falls on the defense. Now then, the Green Bay loss falls on the offense and the play calling. The loss to Philly to end the season also falls on the offense as it was Orton who threw the final pick.

 

Now then, the 8 losses were not the fault of the offense. A few of them, yes, could be attributed to the offensive play calling and execution. But if you want to pin the 8 losses on Romo then by all means, we'll take them one game at a time and I will prove you wrong on the majority of them.

I presented the 5 games that we could have won out of the 8 losses that I blame on poor coaching and quarterback play, the other three I do blame on the Defense. I realize that our Defense wasn't created to win games, you can tell that with their play on the field, but our offense is supposed to be a juggernaut. We have offensive weapons on the field, but it seems like they're misfiring a lot of times.

[buckeyefan1984]

DaveTV1, on 19 Mar 2014 - 7:44 PM, said:

Yours is as well, because it's always the Defenses fault, the offensive lines fault, or with your logic since it's all luck me wearing my Roger Staubach Jersey instead of my Tony Dorsett jersey on any given Sunday or Monday Night.

 

At least we brought Weeden in at the league minimum, but he's the same as Tim Couch to me. Some are specualting that Orton may retire, but that's a $3.4 million hit on the salary cap next year. http://nfl.si.com/2014/03/17/brandon-weeden-deal-dallas-cowboys/ even if he does.

 

As I've said, I'd be shouting Romo praises if the Cowboys had done something during his tenure, but we haven't.

 

Come on Dave, I mean let's be real here. We've covered the playoff losses and have proven that they weren't Romo's fault. Do I blame Romo for his mistakes that attributes to losses? why yes, yes I do. Was Romo partly to blame for the loss to Seattle in 2006? why yes, he was the one who fumbled the snap for the field goal attempt. But, it was also because of Romo that Dallas was even in the playoffs to begin with, just like it was because of Romo that they were even in a position to win that game.

 

To say that he hasn't done anything is false, because had it not been for Romo, Dallas wouldn't have been in the playoffs period.

[buckeyefan1984]

I presented the 5 games that we could have won out of the 8 losses that I blame on poor coaching and quarterback play, the other three I do blame on the Defense. I realize that our Defense wasn't created to win games, you can tell that with their play on the field, but our offense is supposed to be a juggernaut. We have offensive weapons on the field, but it seems like they're misfiring a lot of times.

 

The Philly game was on Orton and not Romo. So that leaves four losses that you blame on the offense (Romo). The Lions game, the defense folded like wet paper and let them down the field in what? 3 plays? They had completely given up by virtue of simply letting Stafford "walk" into the endzone. That loss is on the defense, so now that leaves three losses to blame on the offense (Romo). The Bronco game, Romo throws for over 500 yards and the offense puts up 48 points...but yet, YOU want to blame the offense (Romo). Sorry there Dave, but had that been Troy Aikman or Roger Staubach, would you still blame the offense? no? I didn't think so. So now that leaves in all reality, the Green Bay game. Yes, the Green Bay game can be placed at the feet of Tony Romo. I think there were several moments where Romo could have switched to running plays in order to protect the lead, but there was no confidence at all in the running game.

 

Sorry there Dave, but I believe in looking at the total picture and not just at Romo because I feel that he should be something that he's not. Sorry, but no quarterback could overcome the shortcomings of a poor overall football team.

 

Case in point, look at the New Orleans Saints during the 2012 season.

[spacegolfer]

 

The Philly game was on Orton and not Romo. So that leaves four losses that you blame on the offense (Romo). The Lions game, the defense folded like wet paper and let them down the field in what? 3 plays? They had completely given up by virtue of simply letting Stafford "walk" into the endzone. That loss is on the defense, so now that leaves three losses to blame on the offense (Romo). The Bronco game, Romo throws for over 500 yards and the offense puts up 48 points...but yet, YOU want to blame the offense (Romo). Sorry there Dave, but had that been Troy Aikman or Roger Staubach, would you still blame the offense? no? I didn't think so. So now that leaves in all reality, the Green Bay game. Yes, the Green Bay game can be placed at the feet of Tony Romo. I think there were several moments where Romo could have switched to running plays in order to protect the lead, but there was no confidence at all in the running game.

 

Sorry there Dave, but I believe in looking at the total picture and not just at Romo because I feel that he should be something that he's not. Sorry, but no quarterback could overcome the shortcomings of a poor overall football team.

 

Case in point, look at the New Orleans Saints during the 2012 season.

Glad you pointed out the bad calls to protect the lead. Whether it was Tony Romo or Coaching that made the decisions on what plays to run or audible I don't know. Sure there will be mistakes and miss-reads. That happens to all teams. I just have problems not forcing the run more and using that to make the passing game better. I do think that problem was more than just the Green Bay game.

 

The offensive line ended up playing better this year but was still weak in run blocking. Tony has an uncanny knack for escaping and making plays. That is what has helped Dallas survive some of the games when the line did not hold up. Since he does not turn the ball over much really helps in that area as well.

 

Yes give me seasons where Tony Romo has a very good defense and decent offensive line. Dallas will win a lot more and be in the playoffs every time.

[buckeyefan1984]

Glad you pointed out the bad calls to protect the lead. Whether it was Tony Romo or Coaching that made the decisions on what plays to run or audible I don't know. Sure there will be mistakes and miss-reads. That happens to all teams. I just have problems not forcing the run more and using that to make the passing game better. I do think that problem was more than just the Green Bay game.

 

The offensive line ended up playing better this year but was still weak in run blocking. Tony has an uncanny knack for escaping and making plays. That is what has helped Dallas survive some of the games when the line did not hold up. Since he does not turn the ball over much really helps in that area as well.

 

Yes give me seasons where Tony Romo has a very good defense and decent offensive line. Dallas will win a lot more and be in the playoffs every time.

 

Glad to be of service. Matter of fact, one only has to go back to the 2012 season to see how a good quarterback (Drew Brees) can look bad when coaching and defense suffers.

 

Or in 2013 when the offensive line has a ton of holes in it (Eli Manning).

[spacegolfer]

 

Glad to be of service. Matter of fact, one only has to go back to the 2012 season to see how a good quarterback (Drew Brees) can look bad when coaching and defense suffers.

 

Or in 2013 when the offensive line has a ton of holes in it (Eli Manning).

Couldn't have said it better. People tend to overlook the rest of the team when they want to blame the qb and coach. However... I would still want to blame Elite Manning for their failures. Just because he is way overrated.

[Coach Rab]

The Romo hate gives me a headache.

 

I love to bash his boneheaded mistakes. BUT he is still a greata QB. Not an all-time great, but Great. Let's replace Romo with let's say Matt Schaub, or some other 2nd-3rd tier QB from last season... I would give the Cowboys maybe 5 wins. If Romo is 3 wins better, than an average starting QB, that is pretty damned good.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[spacegolfer]

I have noticed something about Johnny Manziel. Now I am not saying he is near as good as Tony Romo, but his movements and throwing motion and body language sure reminds me of Tony Romo.

[Coach Rab]

Do some of his bone-headed off the field actions also remind you of some of Romo's on the field actions? *evil grin*

[KirtFalcon]

I have noticed something about Johnny Manziel. Now I am not saying he is near as good as Tony Romo, but his movements and throwing motion and body language sure reminds me of Tony Romo.

 

Funny stuff, comparing Tony Turnover to a Heisman Trophy winner. Romo is nowhere near the instinctive football player that Manziel is. QBs like Manziel find a way to get it done, to change games, to pull a rabbit out of their hat when all seems lost. Romo has never shown me much of those qualities. Johnny Manziel is a great football player and a great athlete, Romo is a very good athlete trying to play quarterback in the NFL. At times, he seems like a fish out of water that would just as soon be playing a round of golf as getting ready to play a win or go home game in the NFL.

[DaveTV1]

The Romo hate gives me a headache.

 

I love to bash his boneheaded mistakes. BUT he is still a greata QB. Not an all-time great, but Great. Let's replace Romo with let's say Matt Schaub, or some other 2nd-3rd tier QB from last season... I would give the Cowboys maybe 5 wins. If Romo is 3 wins better, than an average starting QB, that is pretty damned good.

 

Just my 2 cents.

He's a decent quarterback, but not for the Cowboys. Until he leads the Cowboys to a Super Bowl, he will be considered as second tier. With his contract, I don't see the Cowboys competing for a Super Bowl. If he doesn't recover from back surgery, it's going to get really ugly from me. I had high hopes for him when he became the starter, but those hopes have vanished with the reality of dismal success which equates failure.