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UT Tyler football

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What is the status of UT football. I thought they would be a start up program in 2015.

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Talked about it, but was removed from the ballot. UT system stated they didn't think UTT was ready just yet.

 

They would probably need to increase their on campus housing maybe? Not sure of any of that... I know when ETBU started football, enrollment exploded... I can't imagine what it would be like at a D3 State school.

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They would probably need to increase their on campus housing maybe? Not sure of any of that... I know when ETBU started football, enrollment exploded... I can't imagine what it would be like at a D3 State school.

 

Parking is the biggest issue on campus right now. UT Tyler is in negotiation I believe with "Village at the U" formally known as "Cambridge" to buy that apartment complex right across the street from the university to increase some housing. The University is also building a Pharmacy building, tearing down trees along one side of the lake, have to feel like the trees on the other side will be next. UTT is steadily increasing, I believe up 11% this year from last Spring. If football comes, enrollment will go through the roof.

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I'm wondering If the Tyler market isn't already too saturated with football. JT, Lee, TJC, Texas College, TVCC, Kilgore College...... On top of tons of other HS teams in the immediate area.

 

UTT might be fighting a losing battle for a fanbase and more importantly ticket sales. Especially when the school is widely regarded as a commuter school.

 

An over saturized football market for HS and college football is the driving force behind the reason UT-Dallas (in the same conference with UTT and ETBU) doesn't have a team. With SMU, TCU, UNT, SWAGU, (UTA in talks of returning to football) and a ton of HS football.... There's not much left. DFW is at critical mass with college football.

 

That's an awfully expensive experiment to risk for UTT.

 

Just my opinion though.

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I'm wondering If the Tyler market isn't already too saturated with football. JT, Lee, TJC, Texas College, TVCC, Kilgore College...... On top of tons of other HS teams in the immediate area.

 

UTT might be fighting a losing battle for a fanbase and more importantly ticket sales. Especially when the school is widely regarded as a commuter school.

 

An over saturized football market for HS and college football is the driving force behind the reason UT-Dallas (in the same conference with UTT and ETBU) doesn't have a team. With SMU, TCU, UNT, SWAGU, (UTA in talks of returning to football) and a ton of HS football.... There's not much left. DFW is at critical mass with college football.

 

That's an awfully expensive experiment to risk for UTT.

 

Just my opinion though.

Well, I wouldn't call it the 'Tyler market', but I do agree that the East TX market is probably too saturated.

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Unfortunately I think the football issue at UTT is dead for a while. Trustees would not put it on the ballot. Students started a petition to try and get it placed on the ballot but that failed as well. One administrator even bought goal posts to build interest put on campus and those have been taken down.

 

I do have one question about the saturated market. Not counting JT and Lee football, cause that is high school football, is the TJC, ETBU, Texas College and others really good football? I have never been so I am only asking the question. How many folks from Tyler would drive to Marshall or Kilgore or where ever to watch those teams play on a Saturday? But they might drive across town to watch a local team play.

 

Knowing UTT, if they started a football program, they would do it right, not half way.

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I agree with Mavchamp. People don't realize how expensive football really is. Ask Lon Morris. Unless you are Division 1 with TV, turning a profit is hard. Almost all sports at JUCO and D3 level lose money, i.e, they don't bring in net revenue. Look at attendance. Pretty bad in all JUCO sports. Sure, it can increase enrollment .... but the bottom line is what is the net revenue. It's nada. I do not think you will see football at UT Tyler for a while... unless some of new president comes in and pushes it through some way. Way, way too expensive.

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Well, I wouldn't call it the 'Tyler market', but I do agree that the East TX market is probably too saturated.

well technically it kinda is outside of ETBU, TVCC and Kilgore College

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I agree with Mavchamp. People don't realize how expensive football really is. Ask Lon Morris. Unless you are Division 1 with TV, turning a profit is hard. Almost all sports at JUCO and D3 level lose money, i.e, they don't bring in net revenue. Look at attendance. Pretty bad in all JUCO sports. Sure, it can increase enrollment .... but the bottom line is what is the net revenue. It's nada. I do not think you will see football at UT Tyler for a while... unless some of new president comes in and pushes it through some way. Way, way too expensive.

 

You have hit the nail on the head. Attendance at sporting events at UTT is nowhere near where it should be for the student-athletes that are competing. The baseball/softball teams continually win conference and there aren't over 150 people in the stands from UTT, as well as the woman's basketball team just had a stellar run through conference play and the attendance is very poor. I saw a packed house for White Oak when they played a playoff game here last year, and I have seen nowhere near that attendance at a UTT sporting event. I understand it was playoffs but still.

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I agree with Mavchamp. People don't realize how expensive football really is. Ask Lon Morris. Unless you are Division 1 with TV, turning a profit is hard. Almost all sports at JUCO and D3 level lose money, i.e, they don't bring in net revenue. Look at attendance. Pretty bad in all JUCO sports. Sure, it can increase enrollment .... but the bottom line is what is the net revenue. It's nada. I do not think you will see football at UT Tyler for a while... unless some of new president comes in and pushes it through some way. Way, way too expensive.

Lon Morris just jumped in without any preparation. I think things could have worked out really well, but they basically decided on a whim without really looking at all it entailed. Yeah, they looked at other programs and what they were doing, but they didn't think about how it would affect the campus...

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The American Southwest Conference is annually in the top 5 for NCAA Div III football attendance.

 

ETBU consistently is in the top half of the conference in attendance with about 2,500 per game. And that's been with a team that's mostly gone 6-4 or 5-5 for the last decade. If the Tigers could ever return to the success of the mid 2000's, my guess it would go well above 3,000/game.

 

Keep in mind.....most of the schools in the ASC have enrollments of about 1,500-2,500 students. Most of those are residential students. UTT has almost 7000... most of those are commuters.

 

Like I said....seems like an uphill and expensive battle for UTT to get on the gridiron.

 

TJC is long established in Tyler....and I would venture to say they rarely get more than 3000 at a game in Rose Stadium. At least not when Ive attended any of their games.

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All you folks are spot on. As for Lon Morris, and other programs like football and basketball, a large percentage of the athletes qualify for Pell Grants. Those are $ 2350 max per semester, I believe. Try going to UT Tyler on that -- so the school has to pick up the rest after the government pays. This is what happened to LMC with 125 kids on Pell Grants and the school (a private school, mind you) making up the difference. It is a money pit. It is not a "add it and they will come" thing. Oh they will come... but the net revenue is negative. In general, athletics below Division 1 is a net-loss proposition even with solid attendance as Mavchamp noted in that conference.

 

For example, can attendance pay for it? I had a former NFL coach and college coach tell me it costs a minimum of $ 10,000 per year, PER PLAYER, to suit up a football team. For 40 players, that's $400,000 per year just to show up. So for 5 home games at $ 10 per ticket, you need to average 8,000 sold tickets per game just to cover home game costs. What about away games? The cost is incredible to transport and feed them. Money pit.

 

Sorry, I forgot to warn you math was involved . . . LOL!!

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Here is attendance for all of D3:

 

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/02/sju-leads-2010-attendance

 

Notable for the ASC:

 

#10 Mississippi College- 4,512/game

#18 Mary Hardin Baylor- 3,533/game

#19 Louisiana College- 3,460/game

#20 Hardin Simmons- 3,453/game

#46 East Texas Baptist University 2,669/game

 

I think Texas Lutheran is the only one in the ASC still in the top 100 for attendance. But that's 6 schools in the top 100 in attendance out of 8 football schools. Keep in mind there are about 240 schools that play D3 football...making it by far the largest division in all of NCAA football. (FBS has 120-ish).

 

Fun stuff out there. And they actually have a REAL playoff. A 32 team bracket for 240 schools is some tight competition.

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The American Southwest Conference is annually in the top 5 for NCAA Div III football attendance.

 

ETBU consistently is in the top half of the conference in attendance with about 2,500 per game. And that's been with a team that's mostly gone 6-4 or 5-5 for the last decade. If the Tigers could ever return to the success of the mid 2000's, my guess it would go well above 3,000/game.

 

Keep in mind.....most of the schools in the ASC have enrollments of about 1,500-2,500 students. Most of those are residential students. UTT has almost 7000... most of those are commuters.

 

Like I said....seems like an uphill and expensive battle for UTT to get on the gridiron.

 

TJC is long established in Tyler....and I would venture to say they rarely get more than 3000 at a game in Rose Stadium. At least not when Ive attended any of their games.

 

One of the things that ETBU really does to help this is that they have incentives to live on Campus. Did you know that if you graduated High School in Harrison County, that ETBU has a scholarship that will pay up to $900 of your housing cost? Also, with the increase in new housing around campus, even more incentive... Merle Bruce was a prison, I hear the new Merle is nice. I live in the University Apartments my 2nd year on campus. Those were nice. Then you take into account all of the campus organizations and the way they get involved in the sporting events... Pi Sigma always had the drums and the old ratty couch in the end zone. Then the Blue group or whatever... the spirit group... always a good turnout of those kids...

 

So one thing I think UT Tyler needs to push is housing and reason to live on campus, and incentive to live on campus. UT's online system has become huge. So part of their enrollment may be online as well. However, until they get the parking and the housing straightened out, the sporting support will always be a bit behind.

 

Another thing pointed out too... UT Dallas has amazing sporting facilities. I would see them and UT Tyler getting a program together at the same time.

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All you folks are spot on. As for Lon Morris, and other programs like football and basketball, a large percentage of the athletes qualify for Pell Grants. Those are $ 2350 max per semester, I believe. Try going to UT Tyler on that -- so the school has to pick up the rest after the government pays. This is what happened to LMC with 125 kids on Pell Grants and the school (a private school, mind you) making up the difference. It is a money pit. It is not a "add it and they will come" thing. Oh they will come... but the net revenue is negative. In general, athletics below Division 1 is a net-loss proposition even with solid attendance as Mavchamp noted in that conference.

 

For example, can attendance pay for it? I had a former NFL coach and college coach tell me it costs a minimum of $ 10,000 per year, PER PLAYER, to suit up a football team. For 40 players, that's $400,000 per year just to show up. So for 5 home games at $ 10 per ticket, you need to average 8,000 sold tickets per game just to cover home game costs. What about away games? The cost is incredible to transport and feed them. Money pit.

 

Sorry, I forgot to warn you math was involved . . . LOL!!

 

I can help with with start up costs:

 

Initially ETBU without visitor stands Stadium: Just over $1M

Shoulder pads: $150-$300 a set (assume 150 players)- $225,000-$450,000

Helmets: $150-300 a piece (assume 150 players)- $225,000-$450,000

T-shirts, Shorts, Cleats- T-shirts you can get for about $5-7 each unless those have gone up. So about $550 a year. Same for shorts. $550/yr. Cleats (2 pair game and practice)- $50-100 each- $5000-10000

Jerseys (practice)- these are generally cheap... $10 a pop

Game Jerseys- These can be a real money sink... $100-200 depending on the brand... So another couple $100k.

Then you also have to think, you will need a field house, practice field (I prefer a turf game field and practice on it). etc etc

 

I didnt add this up, but I think you get my point. You also will need at least 12 coaches and an Athletic Trainer...

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This is just a personal opinion.....and admittedly biased....

 

But I don't like large state schools like UTD, UTT, and Mississippi College in the same conference as schools the size of ETBU, and HSU, and La. College. It's a distinct disadvantage. But I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

Schools with 10K+ shouldn't be playing schools of 2K.

 

UTT getting into football would only add to that problem. UTD would be even worse because they are over 21,000 students there.

 

Honestly.....IMHO....... D3 needs to be divided into a large and small bracket so schools like Tyler, UT-Dallas, Mississippi College, et al can compete and then schools like ETBU, UMHB, HSU, et al can compete.

 

But that's not likely to happen.

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This is just a personal opinion.....and admittedly biased....

 

But I don't like large state schools like UTD, UTT, and Mississippi College in the same conference as schools the size of ETBU, and HSU, and La. College. It's a distinct disadvantage. But I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

Schools with 10K+ shouldn't be playing schools of 2K.

 

UTT getting into football would only add to that problem. UTD would be even worse because they are over 21,000 students there.

 

Honestly.....IMHO....... D3 needs to be divided into a large and small bracket so schools like Tyler, UT-Dallas, Mississippi College, et al can compete and then schools like ETBU, UMHB, HSU, et al can compete.

 

But that's not likely to happen.

I always thought Mississippi college was private. I know they used to be a d2 feeder school for miss st and ole miss for a while. It's weird that if they are a state school that they have been average at best since Etbu joined the asc

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Made me look it up. You're right. MC is indeed private.

 

I know they applied to move back up to D2 last year, but the NCAA denied them. My guess is that they will try again. And keep trying until they get it.... just like McMurray Univeristy did.

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Made me look it up. You're right. MC is indeed private.

 

I know they applied to move back up to D2 last year, but the NCAA denied them. My guess is that they will try again. And keep trying until they get it.... just like McMurray Univeristy did.

 

Hopefully they will have a better plan if they do, moving from non scholarship to scholarship can almost ruin your finances if you are not smart about it. McMurry just decided that moving to d2 was a mistake and are on their way back to d3.

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Made me look it up. You're right. MC is indeed private.

 

I know they applied to move back up to D2 last year, but the NCAA denied them. My guess is that they will try again. And keep trying until they get it.... just like McMurray Univeristy did.

MC fixed whatever problem the NCAA did not like and got accepted into D2 for next year. This is their last year in ASC. On the other hand, McMurray has made the decision to come back to D3. Saw it last week. Not sure what conference they will be in as I figure both the ASC and the SCAC will via for them pretty heavily.

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I could not remember the numbers, so I found the article about UTT starting football. To partially fund the program, student fees were going to just about double. Article said for a student with 15 hours that it would cost them an additional $180 a semester; or $360 a year. I have no idea on how many hours students there carry but if 4,000 students paid that additional $360 that's a little over $1.4 million per year. It won't cover all the expenses but it would be a start.

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Unfortunately I think the football issue at UTT is dead for a while. Trustees would not put it on the ballot. Students started a petition to try and get it placed on the ballot but that failed as well. One administrator even bought goal posts to build interest put on campus and those have been taken down.

 

I do have one question about the saturated market. Not counting JT and Lee football, cause that is high school football, is the TJC, ETBU, Texas College and others really good football? I have never been so I am only asking the question. How many folks from Tyler would drive to Marshall or Kilgore or where ever to watch those teams play on a Saturday? But they might drive across town to watch a local team play.

 

Knowing UTT, if they started a football program, they would do it right, not half way.

There was also petition started by students to try to stop it due to the potential increase of $360 per semester. The students are already getting hammered by fees.

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I have two daughters who graduated from UT Tyler. The fees are ridiculous. Fall, Spring, Summer 1 and Summer II . . . they charged the fees every semester. Ever since Gov. Perry took the lid off colleges raising their fees and tuition in 2006 with the warning "I'm doing this so don't go crazy" (my paraphrase) -- the colleges went crazy. Jacked up fees and tuition by 25%. How many people have had a 25% raise since 2006? I LOVE football just like anyone else. But when it doesn't make sense financially -- as in every college level except Division 1 football -- I don't blame the students at all. As long as kids can borrow money and get in heavy debt to go to college, these costs will keep going up. Economics, supply and demand. I believe in college... but... at some point, people will rebel and stop paying and the costs will level off. We're just not there yet.

 

College football is great but at the lower levels, I just don't see the financial viability.

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