unclejohn Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If the Pats win with Brady is he the best qb of all time? I say Montana is the greatest since he led SF to all them wins and was "close" with Kansas City. Is Brady a "system" qb kind of like Castles? Is he/will he be the greatest qb with one more SB ring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Montana was just as much of a "system" as Brady is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldandwhite Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Montana had a perfect Super Bowl record and Brady has a loss. I'll go with Montana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Brady isn't even the best QB in the league today, and definitely not the best of all time. As for trying to compare Brady to Montana (which I personally think is ridiculous), then let's look at several things.... 1) For anyone that thinks Montana was a "system" QB (which I'm sure you're basing that because he was throwing to Jerry Rice), here are a few notes of interest... In 1981, he led SF to a 13-3 record and a Super Bowl Championship. His leading WR's were Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon (Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Brent Jones were not there yet). His RB was Ricky Patton who had less than 600 yards rushing that season (No Roger Craig or Tom Rathman either). And guess what, 3 years later (he missed most of the '82 season with injury and lost 2nd rd of '83) he led SF to a 14-1 record, 1st in the league in scoring, his 2ND SB Championship....And STILL NO Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Brent Jones, or Tom Rathman! And he won his 4 SB's under 2 different coaches (Brady has had the luxury of the same coach throughout his). He had a 61% comp percentage over two years at the end of his career in Kansas City! He also led KC to an 11-5 record in '93 and to the AFC championship where they lost 13-6 to Buffalo. So obviously it wasn't just because he was throwing to Jerry Rice. As for Brady, well, we've all seen what NE did for a season without him....11-5 with a QB who hadn't played since HS! 2) Now let's look at some comparable playoff stats.... In Brady's last 11 postseason games, he's 6-5, thrown 24 TD's, and 16 Int's. And each of these numbers include this year, meaning 2 of those 6 wins are this year, 6 of those 24 TD's were in 1 game against Denver! In six of those 11 games, his passer rating was below 80. Montana had a TOTAL of 6 career postseason games with a rating under 80....And that would be 23 games! And let's not forget, when Montana was winning SB's with the Niners, you actually had more than one or two teams in the NFL that were considered "Elite". Oh, and let's not forget, that was also when the defense could actually hit the QB's, WR's, and TE's! Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Mine is that Brady would be lucky to just carry Montana's jock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclejohn Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Brady isn't even the best QB in the league today, and definitely not the best of all time. As for trying to compare Brady to Montana (which I personally think is ridiculous), then let's look at several things.... 1) For anyone that thinks Montana was a "system" QB (which I'm sure you're basing that because he was throwing to Jerry Rice), here are a few notes of interest... In 1981, he led SF to a 13-3 record and a Super Bowl Championship. His leading WR's were Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon (Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Brent Jones were not there yet). His RB was Ricky Patton who had less than 600 yards rushing that season (No Roger Craig or Tom Rathman either). And guess what, 3 years later (he missed most of the '82 season with injury and lost 2nd rd of '83) he led SF to a 14-1 record, 1st in the league in scoring, his 2ND SB Championship....And STILL NO Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Brent Jones, or Tom Rathman! And he won his 4 SB's under 2 different coaches (Brady has had the luxury of the same coach throughout his). He had a 61% comp percentage over two years at the end of his career in Kansas City! He also led KC to an 11-5 record in '93 and to the AFC championship where they lost 13-6 to Buffalo. So obviously it wasn't just because he was throwing to Jerry Rice. As for Brady, well, we've all seen what NE did for a season without him....11-5 with a QB who hadn't played since HS! 2) Now let's look at some comparable playoff stats.... In Brady's last 11 postseason games, he's 6-5, thrown 24 TD's, and 16 Int's. And each of these numbers include this year, meaning 2 of those 6 wins are this year, 6 of those 24 TD's were in 1 game against Denver! In six of those 11 games, his passer rating was below 80. Montana had a TOTAL of 6 career postseason games with a rating under 80....And that would be 23 games! And let's not forget, when Montana was winning SB's with the Niners, you actually had more than one or two teams in the NFL that were considered "Elite". Oh, and let's not forget, that was also when the defense could actually hit the QB's, WR's, and TE's! Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Mine is that Brady would be lucky to just carry Montana's jock! Nice analysis. Wish we had some Brady backers who could bring it like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Nice analysis. Wish we had some Brady backers who could bring it like that. As a Cowboys fan, I've always hated the 49ers. But I also give credit where it's due. There are few QB's (my own opinion, maybe only Peyton Manning), that deserve to be compared to Joe Montana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclejohn Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 As a Cowboys fan, I've always hated the 49ers. But I also give credit where it's due. There are few QB's (my own opinion, maybe only Peyton Manning), that deserve to be compared to Joe Montana. +1. We can go further and say like previously stated that Montana is undefeated in SBs and his SBs wins were BIG. Brady needed two "miracle" Fgs and let's not forget the Belicheat scandal. Maybe Donovan and the Eagles would have had a ring that yr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayseed Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 +1. We can go further and say like previously stated that Montana is undefeated in SBs and his SBs wins were BIG. Brady needed two "miracle" Fgs and let's not forget the Belicheat scandal. Maybe Donovan and the Eagles would have had a ring that yr. Blah Blah Blah Brady is a top 5 QB all time right now regardless of the outcome of this Super Bowl. Everybody always remembers the past and past players to better than they actually were. All of you need to take off your graduation goggles. Montana is a top 5 QB all time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Blah Blah Blah Brady is a top 5 QB all time right now regardless of the outcome of this Super Bowl. Everybody always remembers the past and past players to better than they actually were. All of you need to take off your graduation goggles. Montana is a top 5 QB all time too. Why so many people are stuck up Brady's butt, I have no idea. Wait, yes I do...because he's won 4 SB's. But oh yea, that's a TEAM achievement! How many of those SB's did Brady have to lead NE down the field and put it in the endzone? Driving 30-40 yards downfield for a fg (when the defense can't touch you) is not quite the same as driving 90+ yards down the field with less than 2 minutes for a TD! If you want to place Brady on that pedestal because of rings...then I guess Robert Horry should be placed up there with Jordan...yea, it's that stupid. We've seen what the Pats can do (with the same roster, minus the QB) without Brady! I don't need anymore proof than that. As for as saying everyone remembers the past. I'd have to HIGHLY disagree. I would say that more people rank players they've seen more recent than they do players that played before. Montana, P Manning, Bradshaw, Staubach, S Young, Marino, Elway, Favre, Unitas, Bart Starr, Moon, Otto Graham...Hell, even Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers. I'd rank every one of them above Brady! With what they were each able to do, with what they did or didn't have around them, and when they did it, they're all better than Brady. You can't breathe on Brady without him screaming for a flag! You really think he could have done what he does today back when defenses could have actually hit him!!! Hell, he looks no better than average when you put him against the top defenses now. What made each and every one of the QB's great that I listed is they all did it over their entire careers, in the face of adversity, with poor talent around them (obviously only in some cases), and regardless of their opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I'm not a Brady fan, but he is one of the greatest. Comparing stats Brady will surpass Montana in all records except interceptions next year. Brady wasn't expected to do anything in the NFL as a 6 round draft pick, all the other QB's are out of the league. He's done more with the Patriots than Montana ever did with San Francisco. He's only been in the league for 12 years, and I see him playing for 3-5 more. I think he takes the lead with a victory on Sunday, and solidifies it with another Super Bowl victory in the next 3 years. He's had 3 rushers that have run for more than 1,000 yards in his career. His lead wide receiver was given to them for a 2nd and 7th round draft choice. Stats with rings don't lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I'm not a Brady fan, but he is one of the greatest. Comparing stats Brady will surpass Montana in all records except interceptions next year. Brady wasn't expected to do anything in the NFL as a 6 round draft pick, all the other QB's are out of the league. He's done more with the Patriots than Montana ever did with San Francisco. He's only been in the league for 12 years, and I see him playing for 3-5 more. I think he takes the lead with a victory on Sunday, and solidifies it with another Super Bowl victory in the next 3 years. He's had 3 rushers that have run for more than 1,000 yards in his career. His lead wide receiver was given to them for a 2nd and 7th round draft choice. Stats with rings don't lie. You're kidding right!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 You're kidding right!!! Brady had to put up with Randy "I'll play when I want to " Moss and Troy Brown. Montana had a great receiving corps with Rice, Taylor, and Freddie Solomon. This didn't count Roger Craig not only on the ground, but through the air. He was the first player to have 1000 yards receiving and running in one year. Why he isn't in the NFL HOF is beyond me. I haven't even mentioned Dwight Clark, because I hate him so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Brady had to put up with Randy "I'll play when I want to " Moss and Troy Brown. Montana had a great receiving corps with Rice, Taylor, and Freddie Solomon. This didn't count Roger Craig not only on the ground, but through the air. He was the first player to have 1000 yards receiving and running in one year. Why he isn't in the NFL HOF is beyond me. I haven't even mentioned Dwight Clark, because I hate him so much. Okay, first and foremost, as I've already mentioned above earlier, Montana did not have Rice or Taylor for his first two SB's. As for Solomon, to even mention him with Rice, Moss, or Troy Brown is just ridiculous. And speaking of Moss, if you remember, he broke Jerry Rice's record for TD receptions in a single season. Like when he played for Minn, he was impossible to cover when in NE. I'd say he clearly "wanted to play" when he was with the Pats. The only thing I would agree with you on is your comment about Roger Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badblackcat Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Bart Starr is ahead of Montana and Brady. While it is true that Bill Walsh's system seemed to hit its stride with Montana (and take the NFL by storm quickly after), I'm glad to see there is some debunking of the "system quarterback". Every system should (and most do) tailor to its quarterback's strengths, and Joe Montana's abilities were standing out before Jerry Rice was a household name. Most NFL offenses now use West Coast concepts anyways. If Montana had help, it was in the form of his pass defense, which still might be the best pass defense the NFL has seen in the modern passing era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Okay, first and foremost, as I've already mentioned above earlier, Montana did not have Rice or Taylor for his first two SB's. As for Solomon, to even mention him with Rice, Moss, or Troy Brown is just ridiculous. And speaking of Moss, if you remember, he broke Jerry Rice's record for TD receptions in a single season. Like when he played for Minn, he was impossible to cover when in NE. I'd say he clearly "wanted to play" when he was with the Pats. The only thing I would agree with you on is your comment about Roger Craig. Then shouldn't Montana have had more Super Bowl Championships with that talent ? Freddie Solomon was a solid receiver by late 70's/early 80 standards, and had comparable stats and impact to Alvin Harper of the 90's or Sammie White of the Vikings a very talented #2 receiver of the 70's/80's era. I won't mention Renaldo Nehemiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Bart Starr is ahead of Montana and Brady. While it is true that Bill Walsh's system seemed to hit its stride with Montana (and take the NFL by storm quickly after), I'm glad to see there is some debunking of the "system quarterback". Every system should (and most do) tailor to its quarterback's strengths, and Joe Montana's abilities were standing out before Jerry Rice was a household name. Most NFL offenses now use West Coast concepts anyways. If Montana had help, it was in the form of his pass defense, which still might be the best pass defense the NFL has seen in the modern passing era. Bart Starr is way ahead on NFL Championships with 5. He is a class act as a person too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldandwhite Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Bart Starr is way ahead on NFL Championships with 5. He is a class act as a person too. Starr would have to be at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclejohn Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 What about Johnny Unitas? I say this because Namath looked up to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Sorry guys but I don't put much stock in players before 1970. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldandwhite Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Sorry guys but I don't put much stock in players before 1970. I'd like to see you explain that to Dick Butkus (jk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclejohn Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 I'd like to see you explain that to Dick Butkus (jk) Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 1)Then shouldn't Montana have had more Super Bowl Championships with that talent ? 2)Freddie Solomon was a solid receiver by late 70's/early 80 standards, and had comparable stats and impact to Alvin Harper of the 90's or Sammie White of the Vikings a very talented #2 receiver of the 70's/80's era. I won't mention Renaldo Nehemiah. 1) Why? Super Bowls are team achievements. The only reason I mentioned the Super Bowls that I did was to show that Montana's legacy wasn't built just because of Rice. Other than that, I haven't used number of championships as a comparison. And to finish answering that question, you have to remember that at that time, there wasn't a salary cap. There were far more teams that were Super Bowl caliber teams than there are today. 2) I didn't say Solomon wasn't a good receiver. I said it's ridiculous to compare him to Randy Moss or John Taylor. Solomon didn't have a single season in his career with more than 100 receptions...Moss had 10. Solomon only had 1 season with more than 800 receiving yards, and he still didn't crack 1,000....Moss had 11 seasons over 1000 yards. Solomon had 1 season with double digit TD's (10)...Moss had 10 with double digits, and had more receiving TD's in 3 seasons than Solomon had in his career. I do like the comparison to Harper though. Harper was a great 2nd receiver for the Cowboys. But he will never be considered the type of receiver that was responsible for the success of the QB...just like Solomon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I'd like to see you explain that to Dick Butkus (jk) Lol I would like to see Butkus chase Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson around lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Lol I would like to see Butkus chase Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson around lol. I'd like to see Sanders or Peterson take a hit from Butkus :wacko: Can you imagine what he could do with the training and scheme available to todays players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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