KirtFalcon Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Marino was strictly a timing passer. One, two, three ... Boom! He either hit his receivers or threw the ball away. Very little improvisation or other abilities. Yes, he had a quick release and wasn't sacked much, but break up his timing and he wasn't able to do much. Get even token pressure on him and he proved to be very average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Rab Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18581054/greatest-quarterbacks-all-ranking-john-clayton-picks-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-best-nfl-qb-ever http://es.pn/2jkJY6c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Shortest answer.....no. And he wouldn't even be my #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Rab Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 If he plays 3 more years and makes 2 more superbowls he might take my #1 and I do not like much about him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 If he plays 3 more years and makes 2 more superbowls he might take my #1 and I do not like much about him... I don't care how many SB's he plays in....that's a team accomplishment. Charles Haley has 5 SB rings. Is he the greatest DE to ever play? Why does that rule only apply to QB's? IMO, the person responsible for NE's success is Bill Belichick. We've seen NE replace players at every position on offense, including QB. And the result is the same. NE is 15-5 without Tom Brady. And none of those games was he replaced by another HOF QB. Tom Brady has just benefited from having Belichick his entire career. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Joe Montana Peyton Manning Brett Favre John Elway Dan Marino Aaron Rodgers Drew Brees Jim Kelly Kurt Warner You can replace Brady with any one of those names, and NE still has the same result they do under Belichick....JMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoney Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 It's debatable that Bledsoe wins 1, maybe 2 of those Super Bowls of Brady's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 It's debatable that Bledsoe wins 1, maybe 2 of those Super Bowls of Brady's. Who included Bledsoe? lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. P Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Graham...Unitas...Starr...Staubach...Marino...Elway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoney Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Who included Bledsoe? lol I'm just going with Mav's statement that anybody could have won with those Belichick Patriots. He made Matt Cassell look like a starting NFL QB. That deserves a Hall Of Fame bust on merit alone. Lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. P Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I'm just going with Mav's statement that anybody could have won with those Belichick Patriots. He made Matt Cassell look like a starting NFL QB. That deserves a Hall Of Fame bust on merit alone. Lol No doubt. Brady is good, don't get me wrong, but he's driving the fastest car with the best pit crew. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 No doubt. Brady is good, don't get me wrong, but he's driving the fastest car with the best pit crew. Exactly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I have to give it to him, and I hate doing it. Randy Moss and Gronk have been his best receivers, and Gronk hasn't played every game in a season since 2011. Brady's able to do it with multiple receivers. The only time the Patriots haven't made the playoffs was when he went out. They still finished 11-5. He just needs to play two sub par seasons to became the NFL All time yardage leader. He's won more Super Bowls than 13 teams combined, and it will be 14 if he wins Sunday. He's number 3 behind Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson for the NFL's all time Passer rating. I don't see how anyone can say he's not the greatest of all time. I may not like him or his team, but it's there on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I have to give it to him, and I hate doing it. Randy Moss and Gronk have been his best receivers, and Gronk hasn't played every game in a season since 2011. Brady's able to do it with multiple receivers. The only time the Patriots haven't made the playoffs was when he went out. They still finished 11-5. He just needs to play two sub par seasons to became the NFL All time yardage leader. He's won more Super Bowls than 13 teams combined, and it will be 14 if he wins Sunday. He's number 3 behind Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson for the NFL's all time Passer rating. I don't see how anyone can say he's not the greatest of all time. I may not like him or his team, but it's there on paper. How do you measure how good a player is....see how their team does without them. Pats are 15-5 without Brady. That's how someone can not call him the greatest to play. Oh, and let me raise the question again.... Charles Haley has won more SB's than 14 teams combined (he already has 5). Is he the greatest DE ever? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 How do you measure how good a player is....see how their team does without them. Pats are 15-5 without Brady. That's how someone can not call him the greatest to play. Oh, and let me raise the question again.... Charles Haley has won more SB's than 14 teams combined (he already has 5). Is he the greatest DE ever? Haley didn't have the added stats that Brady does. Look who Brady has thrown the ball around to, and only Moss will probably make it to the HOF. He was out of his prime, and had been traded for a fourth round draft pick to the Patties. Moss had three solid seasons with Brady, but he wasn't enough for them to win a Super Bowl with him. Brady has done it with no names basically. Edelman was the only receiver that had over 1000 yards this year, and he's not even a top 10 receiver coming in at 13th for 2016, Like I said, I don't care for Brady, but he has stats and trophies on the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Haley didn't have the added stats that Brady does. Look who Brady has thrown the ball around to, and only Moss will probably make it to the HOF. He was out of his prime, and had been traded for a fourth round draft pick to the Patties. Moss had three solid seasons with Brady, but he wasn't enough for them to win a Super Bowl with him. Brady has done it with no names basically. Edelman was the only receiver that had over 1000 yards this year, and he's not even a top 10 receiver coming in at 13th for 2016, Like I said, I don't care for Brady, but he has stats and trophies on the wall. I won't argue the stats, it's the trophies that I get tired of hearing as to the reason he's so great. Those trophies are team accomplishments. Bill Russell won 11 NBA titles. But the person most people consider the greatest all time has nearly half that. As for who Brady throws to, that's exactly my point. Let's play jeopardy here for a minute... This word used sports means to plug different people into any position and get the same results. What is a system Alex! Oh, and Moss broke the single season TD record when with the Pats. I'd call that more than solid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I won't argue the stats, it's the trophies that I get tired of hearing as to the reason he's so great. Those trophies are team accomplishments. Bill Russell won 11 NBA titles. But the person most people consider the greatest all time has nearly half that. As for who Brady throws to, that's exactly my point. Let's play jeopardy here for a minute... This word used sports means to plug different people into any position and get the same results. What is a system Alex! Oh, and Moss broke the single season TD record when with the Pats. I'd call that more than solid. I know who could break they system, but he's no longer around. By the way he was in the playoffs from 1963-1983 with one interrupted year in 1974. Brady is still the key cog to that dynasty. No one said Belichick was a genius until he had Brady. We saw what he did with Cleveland, and it was rubbish. He had time to develop his system, and what were the results ? One playoff season. I'm not buying your argument, because they fell to 5-11 in his last season as the head coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I know who could break they system, but he's no longer around. By the way he was in the playoffs from 1963-1983 with one interrupted year in 1974. Brady is still the key cog to that dynasty. No one said Belichick was a genius until he had Brady. We saw what he did with Cleveland, and it was rubbish. He had time to develop his system, and what were the results ? One playoff season. I'm not buying your argument, because they fell to 5-11 in his last season as the head coach. We disagree, but that's okay. I personally believe Belichick is the key to their dynasty. No one called him a 'genius' before Brady, because he'd only had one HC job before NE. Thing is, that one HC job he had, has not won a playoff game since he left there. It may have only been the one playoff season....but it was Cleveland! That in itself is telling enough. Just for the record, I do believe Brady is one of the Top QB's of all time...I just wouldn't put him in my top 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. P Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 One key variable between Belichick's time at Cleveland and New England... the Browns had a meddling and incompetent owner who micromanaged everything (poorly). The Patriots had a supportive owner who gave Belichick absolute power over personnel. BIG difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Rab Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Joe Montana Peyton Manning Brett Favre John Elway Dan Marino Aaron Rodgers Drew Brees Jim Kelly Kurt Warner You can replace Brady with any one of those names, and NE still has the same result they do under Belichick....JMO. You list Hall of Fame QBs to make a point? I am not sure what your point is... In today's NFL the cornerstone is the QB. Peyton won a SB by himself almost. Lost another but got them there almost completely by himself. It may due to coaching, but your point is that Billicheat could do it with almost anyone plugged in. They did well with Garripillo (sp), but would he have carried them to the SB? Nope. So championships and championship appearances do matter when judging the GOAT.... I don't have Tom Brady as my #1 either, but with 2 more SB wins he would easily jump to #1 on my list and I don't care if he had the 90s Cowboys OL, Barry Sanders at RB, and Moss and Rice at WR.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 You list Hall of Fame QBs to make a point? I am not sure what your point is... In today's NFL the cornerstone is the QB. Peyton won a SB by himself almost. Lost another but got them there almost completely by himself. It may due to coaching, but your point is that Billicheat could do it with almost anyone plugged in. They did well with Garripillo (sp), but would he have carried them to the SB? Nope. So championships and championship appearances do matter when judging the GOAT.... I don't have Tom Brady as my #1 either, but with 2 more SB wins he would easily jump to #1 on my list and I don't care if he had the 90s Cowboys OL, Barry Sanders at RB, and Moss and Rice at WR.... Yes. Because how can anyone realistically say he is better than any of those if NE enjoys the same success with any one of them replacing Brady? And once again, if championships determine the GOAT, then why is Bill Russell not considered the greatest basketball player all time instead of Jordan? The fact of the matter is, that rule seems to only matter in 1 sport (the ultimate 'team' sport no less), and for 1 position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTV1 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Yes. Because how can anyone realistically say he is better than any of those if NE enjoys the same success with any one of them replacing Brady? And once again, if championships determine the GOAT, then why is Bill Russell not considered the greatest basketball player all time instead of Jordan? The fact of the matter is, that rule seems to only matter in 1 sport (the ultimate 'team' sport no less), and for 1 position. Because no one saw Bill Russell play. Both Russell and Jordan share the same number of league MVP's, but Russell is way ahead of him in NBA Championships with 11 rings. What's amazing about Russell is he coached and played on 3 Championship teams. He just wasn't the scorer that Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain was. He was probably the greatest Center of all time over Wilt, because of his championships. One thing you have to give props to Wilt is he could score. Wilt has 6 of the top 10 top scoring single games all time, and 15 of the top 20 scoring games of all time. He score 50.36 points per game with 27.2 rebounds in 61-62. The thing is he only has two Championships. With his stats I'd put Chamberlain as the Greatest Center. I go with Babe Ruth in baseball, because he could pitch. Why the Yankees didn't use him anymore is beyond me, because he was great with the Red Sox. He did pitch 5 games for the Yankees over 13 years, and won all 5 games. He did have a 9.00 ERA in 1921, but a modest 5.00 in 1933. The Red Sox won 3 World Series with him, but it took them 86 years to win another and they had some great players in between those years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Rab Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Yes. Because how can anyone realistically say he is better than any of those if NE enjoys the same success with any one of them replacing Brady? And once again, if championships determine the GOAT, then why is Bill Russell not considered the greatest basketball player all time instead of Jordan? The fact of the matter is, that rule seems to only matter in 1 sport (the ultimate 'team' sport no less), and for 1 position. At some point the GOAT can't be one person or player. But looking at individual achievements, has to be a criteria. I loved Dan Marino. I loved Boomer Esiason. I loved Jim Kelly. All of them had stacked teams and achieved far less than Tom Brady. Hell, even Troy had some of the greatest teams of all time and only won 4... but in today's game, what Tom Brady has done should earn him the same respect as Troy, Dan, Terry, and Joe when it comes to determining the GOAT. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo97 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 At some point the GOAT can't be one person or player. But looking at individual achievements, has to be a criteria. I loved Dan Marino. I loved Boomer Esiason. I loved Jim Kelly. All of them had stacked teams and achieved far less than Tom Brady. Hell, even Troy had some of the greatest teams of all time and only won 4... but in today's game, what Tom Brady has done should earn him the same respect as Troy, Dan, Terry, and Joe when it comes to determining the GOAT. Here's the thing, we can look at what Brady has done in comparison (his individual stats) to others all day. I can talk all day about what success I think any of these other QB's would have had on the same Pats team, showing that it's not Brady. But at the end of the day, there is still one stat that makes it hard to call him the greatest.....a 75% winning percentage without Brady in the lineup. In 20 games with Brady out of the lineup, the Pats have won 75% of them. I have a hard time calling someone the greatest when their team doesn't need them in order to win....regardless how many rings they've won with the 'team'. Oh, and Marino's top WR during his career in Miami was Mark Clayton. He had a different lead RB nearly every year of his career. None of which ran for 1K yards. Esiason's leading WR was Chris Collinsworth. His lead RB was James Brooks. I'd hardly call either of their teams 'stacked', lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. P Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Here's the thing, we can look at what Brady has done in comparison (his individual stats) to others all day. I can talk all day about what success I think any of these other QB's would have had on the same Pats team, showing that it's not Brady. But at the end of the day, there is still one stat that makes it hard to call him the greatest.....a 75% winning percentage without Brady in the lineup. In 20 games with Brady out of the lineup, the Pats have won 75% of them. I have a hard time calling someone the greatest when their team doesn't need them in order to win....regardless how many rings they've won with the 'team'. Oh, and Marino's top WR during his career in Miami was Mark Clayton. He had a different lead RB nearly every year of his career. None of which ran for 1K yards. Esiason's leading WR was Chris Collinsworth. His lead RB was James Brooks. I'd hardly call either of their teams 'stacked', lol. I watched every game Marino played in the NFL. Around 10 of them in person. Yeah, he had a couple hit and miss seasons of help (Duper/Clayton early on) but he never had a worthwhile team around him. Never had a 1,000-yard rusher. The only season he had a decent defense (1984) they actually went to the Super Bowl. But for most of his career he played on 10-6 wildcard teams that got blown out in the postseason (if they actually made it in). I can't tell you how many times I had to watch him pass for 4tds and 400yds... and lose 45-42 because his defense couldn't stop anybody. <sigh> You could make the case that maybe being in such a #### situation actually enabled him to put up so many eye-popping numbers, but a closer examination at his career shows that he made the Dolphins appear to be a much stronger team than they actually were by virtue of his greatness. That (to me) is one of the most important distinctions of a "GOAT." Not that he be an important cog in the machine, but that he is actually the engine itself. Montana was great, but when he went down with injury the Niners just plugged Young in there and kept on trucking. Well... heh, I guess Young was great too, but you get my point. Bart Starr was truly great and benefited by playing for an NFL legend + on legendary teams. Elway and Unitas are the same as Marino... they made their teams great by virtue of their excellence. But unlike Marino, they eventually got help. When the Colts/Broncos defenses + running games were solid, they both got titles. Same with Peyton Manning... he needed a complete team to get his ring. Never happened for Marino. Again, I'm not taking anything away from Brady. He is light years ahead of Garropaolo, Drew Bledsoe, and most QBs of the last 30 years. I concur that he should certainly be in the conversation about GOAT. Team success and quantifiable performance is very important, yes. But to only count rings + stats is to miss the broader picture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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