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Can a small school coach make the jump to a big school?

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I was watching the DeSoto/Marshall thread and it seemed like a different thread of conversation was emerging...  so I went back and time and created a new thread. This post will appear to you all on Tuesday morning. But as you can see by the date above ^^^ I am actually posting this from Sunday afternoon. 

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20 minutes ago, justafan said:

About 1yr ago. Marshall people were all fired up to get a SMU that was getting fired. You could have had a guy with 2 rings and just went back to the 4th rd. And is an East Texas guy. That would hve stayed and built a program. The committee and Supt are the ones you should be #### at. Now maybe there is someone on staff that can take the job. I have no idea. But u better hope there is. Because I bet a lot of good candidates won’t even apply this time

If you are referring to MISD passing on Waskom's coach.... the district made the right choice passing on him.

Look no further than Hallsville to see how small school coaches fair when they move to larger schools.  There's a LONG list that shows the same story.

Winning at the 2A level is not the same as winning at the 5A level.  The formula is different and it doesn't translate across classifications.    

How many times have we seen it statewide???  Coaches win big in the lower classification and then get drilled at the 5A or 6A level.

MISD took and chance.....we may get burned on it.  Maybe we won't.  Time will tell.

But it's hard to complain when we had a district championship in his first season.  Came within 5 points of beating a defending state semi-finalist in the playoffs......all with a freshman QB no less.

Have a hard time believing someone else could have done any better.  Even if it was Keeling. 

IMHO.... passing on him was wise.  But meanwhile.....back on the ranch.....

 

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42 minutes ago, justafan said:

About 1yr ago. Marshall people were all fired up to get a SMU that was getting fired. You could have had a guy with 2 rings and just went back to the 4th rd. And is an East Texas guy. That would hve stayed and built a program. The committee and Supt are the ones you should be #### at. Now maybe there is someone on staff that can take the job. I have no idea. But u better hope there is. Because I bet a lot of good candidates won’t even apply this time

If things go south with Mathis, I would bet Marshall can still have the coach from the East. I think they would pass again.

 

9 minutes ago, Mavchamp said:

If you are referring to MISD passing on Waskom's coach.... the district made the right choice passing on him.

Look no further than Hallsville to see how small school coaches fair when they move to larger schools.  There's a LONG list that shows the same story.

Winning at the 2A level is not the same as winning at the 5A level.  The formula is different and it doesn't translate across classifications.    

How many times have we seen it statewide???  Coaches win big in the lower classification and then get drilled at the 5A or 6A level.

MISD took and chance.....we may get burned on it.  Maybe we won't.  Time will tell.

But it's hard to complain when we had a district championship in his first season.  Came within 5 points of beating a defending state semi-finalist in the playoffs......all with a freshman QB no less.

Have a hard time believing someone else could have done any better.  Even if it was Keeling. 

IMHO.... passing on him was wise.  But meanwhile.....back on the ranch.....

 

You took the words out of my mouth. But in fairness I don't think the Keeling and Drennon is a fair comparison. Drennon had a once in a lifetime class come thru, and parlayed it into a better job. I think Keeling would have more success at Marshall than Drennon will ever have at Hallsville for many different reasons. I am not saying Keeling comes in and wins a title, but he would have some success at a bigger program.

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With the split in 5a, are we still considering 5a DII a "big school" classification? It seems more of a middle classification to me. I don't think you are dealing with the same things as 5a D1 and 6a. At least not on that same level. We are only talking about 1 class above 4a D1 who people on this site think of as a "small school" classification.

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6 hours ago, justafan said:

About 1yr ago. Marshall people were all fired up to get a SMU that was getting fired. You could have had a guy with 2 rings and just went back to the 4th rd. And is an East Texas guy. That would hve stayed and built a program. The committee and Supt are the ones you should be #### at. Now maybe there is someone on staff that can take the job. I have no idea. But u better hope there is. Because I bet a lot of good candidates won’t even apply this time

We dont need or want any 2A-3A coaches at a 5A program and there will be hundreds apply just like there were last time...

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1 minute ago, Sideliner said:

We dont need or want any 2A-3A coaches at a 5A program and there will be hundreds apply just like there were last time...

I don't think its a "Want" thing about the smaller classification coaches...  The amount of interest that Keeling got for the job is a testament on how good people think that he is and how he could be... But when it came down to it, the powers that be wanted to make a big splash and pulled through on it.

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I know this might be a little off subject, but why does there seem to be the belief that a coach from a small school can't win at a larger school. There are several coaches big time coaches at big schools that come from smaller schools. I know there is a difference in how big schools operate, but the same can be said for a big school coach dropping down in classes. Good coaches find a way to get it done, regardless of class. I wish Matt Stepp or someone could do the research to find out the success rate of coaches from small schools at big and from big schools to small schools. Don't count out a small school guy, could be missing out on the next Art Briles or Todd Dodge or the late John Outlaw.

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Yeah Coach Morris went from EF to Bay City to Lake Travis and so on. So their are coaches that come from small schools that can coach at big schools but maybe Chad Morris is the only exception lol.

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Coaching is coaching. People who think “small” school coaches can’t coach at “big” schools are narrow minded. I’ve been coaching 32 years and 5 of those were small schools and 27 years in 6A. IMO, coaches can coach regardless of classification. You can’t do as many things in small schools schematically because of coaching both sides of the ball. Nonetheless a coach can coach.

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11 hours ago, Mavchamp said:

 

Look no further than Hallsville to see how small school coaches fair when they move to larger schools.  There's a LONG list that shows the same story.

Winning at the 2A level is not the same as winning at the 5A level.  The formula is different and it doesn't translate across classifications.    

 

Preach on!

People don't seem to understand this for some reason.

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46 minutes ago, JTFAN99 said:

I know this might be a little off subject, but why does there seem to be the belief that a coach from a small school can't win at a larger school.

Not a belief when you've witnessed it happen time and time again. Just doesn't work out MAJORITY of the time.

Of course there is the occasional exception but that doesn't make it the norm.

It's no different from Nick Saban. Helluva a college coach, but his NFL resume was beyond horrid. 

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1 hour ago, ANTI said:

Not a belief when you've witnessed it happen time and time again. Just doesn't work out MAJORITY of the time.

Of course there is the occasional exception but that doesn't make it the norm.

It's no different from Nick Saban. Helluva a college coach, but his NFL resume was beyond horrid. 

Nick Saban NFL resume was not beyond horrid. He only coached 2 yrs and he was 15-17. If he would have signed Drew Brees instead of Culpepper, he would still be in the NFL.  Bill Belichick didn't have a good NFL record until he got Tom Brady. NFL is a QB league. Unless you have an incredible Def, you will struggle as a coach without an decent QB. 

As far as high school goes, you seem to have the big school is better than everyone mentality.  You have zero stats to back up your statement that small school coaches fail more when they move up to coach big schools.  And if you do, show us. And show us the success or fail rate for big school coaches moving down to coach small schools. 

I never once said that its a given that a small school coach would do good at a large school. As a matter of fact, it ain't a given on any coach. I have seen big school coaches come to other big schools and fail. But if you are passing on a small school coach only because he comes from a small school, then you are possibly depriving your school of a special coach. I have given you names of legendary coaches that have come from small schools to big schools. Don't be narrow minded. 

By the way, go check John King's resume, and you will see he started at a small school too.

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13 hours ago, Mavchamp said:

Winning at the 2A level is not the same as winning at the 5A level.  The formula is different and it doesn't translate across classifications.    

How many times have we seen it statewide???  Coaches win big in the lower classification and then get drilled at the 5A or 6A level.

 

 

FYI..Mathis' first head coaching job was at 2A Somerville. (Still currently a 2A school) he then went to 4A (now the new 5A) Austin LBJ. 

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16 minutes ago, dillonpanthers said:

FYI..Mathis' first head coaching job was at 2A Somerville. (Still currently a 2A school) he then went to 4A (now the new 5A) Austin LBJ. 

True that as most big school,coaches. They worked their way up. But Claude’s had baggage since Somerville.

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6 hours ago, dillonpanthers said:

FYI..Mathis' first head coaching job was at 2A Somerville. (Still currently a 2A school) he then went to 4A (now the new 5A) Austin LBJ. 

LOL...exactly, John King started out at a school in Many, LA. 

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11 hours ago, JTFAN99 said:

Nick Saban NFL resume was not beyond horrid. He only coached 2 yrs and he was 15-17. 

By the way, go check John King's resume, and you will see he started at a small school too.

That 15-17 is beyond horrid compared to what he has done in college and will get you fired quick in the NFL. Not sure why anyone would think 15-17 is so great unless you enjoy losing.

And John King was never a HC or position coach at a small school, coming directly to be HC at Longview. He came up in the Longview program a full 4 years before he was given the keys to be HC in Longview. So it isn't like he came directly from a small school, then immediately HC at Longview. He got a feel for the program for several years, then took over.

That's way different from a HC coming from a 1A-4A school then immediately being HC at a 5A-6A school....which is what we were referring to.

History has proven that it doesn't work out majority of the time. Can't argue the facts.

Marshall did great by passing on Keeling. His offensive style wouldn't have worked at Marshall and he would've found out quick that Marshall ain't Waskom. 

Just like Drennan is finding out that Hallsville ain't Mineola.

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11 minutes ago, ANTI said:

That 15-17 is beyond horrid compared to what he has done in college and will get you fired quick in the NFL. Not sure why anyone would think 15-17 is so great unless you enjoy losing.

And John King was never a HC at a small school. He came up in the Longview program a full 4 years before he was given the keys to be HC in Longview. So it isn't like he came directly from a small school, then immediately HC at Longview. He got a feel for the program for several years, then took over.

That's way different from a HC coming from a 1A-4A school then immediately being HC at a 5A-6A school....which is what we were referring to.

History has proven that it doesn't work out majority of the time. Can't argue the facts.

I'll ask this question again? What make 5a DII a "big school"? Seems more of a middle class to me. I don't think they have to deal with the same things as D1 or 6a. Definitely not on the same level. We are talking 1 division up from where ETX dominates. To think you can't take a good 4a coach and win in Marshall is absurd. Hell even OC / DC from 4a programs in the area. I can think of 4-5 guys coaching in 4a ETX or that would possibly come back that would be homeruns. I guarantee you we got a DC in Cathage TX that is better X's and O's than Mathis. I'm not saying take a guy from Beckville and make him head coach at Lufkin. But 5a DII landscape is not what you are making it out to be.

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3 minutes ago, BulldogBacker12 said:

I'll ask this question again? What make 5a DII a big school? 

You say that but Carthage struggles to beat 5A D2 schools all the time. Nacogdoches, Jacksonville, Lindale...those are just a few of the 5A schools that aren't good by any stretch most years that Carthage has loss to over the years. 

So I wouldn't be so quick to question the toughness of 5A D2 from a 4A viewpoint.

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15 minutes ago, ANTI said:

Marshall did great by passing on Keeling. His offensive style wouldn't have worked at Marshall and he would've found out quick that Marshall ain't Waskom. 

Just like Drennan is finding out that Hallsville ain't Mineola.

Drennon had a once in a lifetime class at Mineola and parlayed it into a higher paying job in Hallsville. I don't think Hallsville wants to do the things they have to do to win in football. He wasn't necessarily considered an elite coach. He had plenty of stops without having the success he had at Mineloa.

Keeling is a different story. I think when given the chance he can succeed at higher levels. I agree he wasn't the man for Marshall. That was too big of a jump. But if he wants to get to that level he can. Might need another coaching job before moving into 5a though. But if you think he would run the same offense at Marshall as he does at Waskom, you don't know much about the coach.

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15 minutes ago, ANTI said:

You say that but Carthage struggles to beat 5A D2 schools all the time. Nacogdoches, Jacksonville, Lindale...those are just a few of the 5A schools that aren't good by any stretch most years that Carthage has loss to over the years. 

So I wouldn't be so quick to question the toughness of 5A D2 from a 4A viewpoint.

When is the last time Carthage lost to one of those schools? You don't know what you are talking about. Carthage would've absolutely rolled any 5a team in this area this year. And gosh damn sure would've gotten out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Surratt is 18-9 against teams currently in 5a in his career. And that is with an enrollment of 750. Leave Carthage out of this. 

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1 minute ago, BulldogBacker12 said:

I don't think Hallsville wants to do the things they have to do to win in football.

Completely agree on this Hallsville front.

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Start another thread if y’all wanna discuss coaches and classifications. 

This thread is a big enough cluster without adding that 😂

This isn’t a DeSoto school board meeting. 

 

@AKA: I got you fam. :D 

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Just now, Mavchamp said:

Start another thread if y’all wanna discuss coaches and classifications. 

This thread is a big enough cluster without adding that 😂

This isn’t a DeSoto school board meeting. 

Hahaha. Ok you are correct. But this is a fun thread. Ever-evolving. Very fluid we can say. Haha.

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16 minutes ago, ANTI said:

You say that but Carthage struggles to beat 5A D2 schools all the time. Nacogdoches, Jacksonville, Lindale...those are just a few of the 5A schools that aren't good by any stretch most years that Carthage has loss to over the years. 

So I wouldn't be so quick to question the toughness of 5A D2 from a 4A viewpoint.

Lol give it a rest you don't back up anything with facts.

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24 minutes ago, Mavchamp said:

Start another thread if y’all wanna discuss coaches and classifications. 

No need in that. 

Majority of the board don't have the IQ to discuss that topic. lol

Please proceed with the Desoto-Marshall mayhem!

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