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Can a small school coach make the jump to a big school?

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1 minute ago, ANTI said:

You low IQ crazies who seem to think he's the second coming of Belichick and that King can't hold a candle to him...

How did you get that? Huh

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1 minute ago, MavGrad99 said:

4A weight programs and such would have to adjust.  There is a bigger scope to manage in the jump from 4A to a 5A D1 or 6A....  Trust me I know... 4A it can be as simplistic as you want it and still get by on some level... in 5A with more athletes it gets a bit more complicated...

As far as Xs and Os... if you have the horses in the right spots, then I am sure any good coach can win... but developing those horses would be the interesting part in the transition.

Finally, someone who gets it. You know your stuff...

Not to mention the middle school level in big school plays a very important role in consistency. That's the foundation and many big schools have several middle schools that feed into it. Ain't just one school you have to manage. 

You hit the nail right on the head. 

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6 minutes ago, ANTI said:

You low IQ crazies who seem to think he's the second coming of Belichick and that King can't hold a candle to him...

Have you seen me say that? Ever? You tell about as many facts as Trump.

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2 minutes ago, ANTI said:

Finally, someone who gets it. You know your stuff...

Not to mention the middle school level in big school plays a very important role in consistency. That's the foundation and many big schools have several middle schools that feed into it. Ain't just one school you have to manage. 

You hit the nail right on the head. 

Umm pretty sure we all were agreeing with that take. You are the one trying to say small school coach can't succeed.

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3 minutes ago, ANTI said:

Finally, someone who gets it. You know your stuff...

Not to mention the middle school level in big school plays a very important role in consistency. That's the foundation and many big schools have several middle schools that feed into it. Ain't just one school you have to manage. 

You hit the nail right on the head. 

He didn't mention 5a DII which is what this whole conversation is about.

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1 minute ago, BulldogBacker12 said:

Have you seen me say that? Ever? You tell about as many facts as Trump.

He sees what he wants. 

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1 minute ago, Lion70 said:

You are the one trying to say small school coach can't succeed.

Where did I say that?

I said that they don't majority of the time, which is true.

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12 minutes ago, ANTI said:

Where did I say that?

I said that they don't majority of the time, which is true.

Not many to go by either so you can't really come to that conclusion either

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2 hours ago, ANTI said:

Dude, Carthage STRUGGLED most times. Tell the full story. 

2015: Loss to Hallsville who was a 4th place team in their district, beat Lindale by 4 and Nac by 3. Both were below .500 that year and Carthage struggled.

2014: Another loss to Hallsville, this time in blowout fashion. They were a 3rd place team in their district. Beat Lindale by 9, who went a whopping 3-7 that year. Then got blown out by Nac who was a 3rd place team in their district. Struggle....

2013: Beat Nacogdoches by 4, they were a 3rd place team in their district. Also blown out by Whitehouse that year. They beat an 0-10 Jax squad by 14.

2012: Loss to Jax and Whitehouse. Jax was 4-7...

2011: Loss to Lindale..

I could go on forever and literally point out struggle every year but I've made my point. Don't talk down on 5A D2 teams if you aren't dominating them every year...

dude, what exactly is your point. Carthage should lose to these schools, because these schools are literally twice the size of Carthage. But the fact that Carthage has winning record against alot of 5a div2 says alot.  But even if they were 0-20 against them....that doesn't mean Scott Surratt isn't a great coach.  Nick Saban lost to UAB at LSU, and Louisiana-Monroe at Alabama.  I think we know how things turned out for Nick at those schools.  John King has some losses to coaches that aren't on his level, so does that make him a bad coach.   Mike Owens lost to Nacogdoches a couple times during his stint at Lee.  Stop looking at things in a black and white situation.

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1 hour ago, ANTI said:

Finally, someone who gets it. You know your stuff...

Not to mention the middle school level in big school plays a very important role in consistency. That's the foundation and many big schools have several middle schools that feed into it. Ain't just one school you have to manage. 

You hit the nail right on the head. 

Dude, you get more staff at the bigger schools to deal with the extra duties.  So it balances out. At the smaller schools, the head coach has to do more with less. They are not afforded the additional staff.  

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I wanted to get some better evidence to support my argument. So I looked up all of the coaches from the quarterfinal teams (final 8) from 5a div2 to 6a div.1. That's 32 teams in all.  Out of the 32 teams....9 of the coaches had previous HEAD coaching stints at small schools.  That is basically 1/3 of the coaches.  Several others had assistant coaching stints at small schools, but ANTI doesn't count that....although I would.  The others were basically longtime assistants that were promoted. And there were a few that had coaching stints at other big schools

Those coaches were David Malesky (San Antonio O'Connor),  Hal Wasson (SLC), Todd Dodge (Westlake), Kirk Martin (Manvel), Randy Allen (Highland Park),  Ryan Roark (Angleton), Steve Huff (College Station), Chris Melson (Mansfield Legacy), and Phil Danaher (Calallen)

Of those 9 coaches, 4 have state titles, and 2 others have made it to state title games.  Pretty good success rate in my opinion.  I know there is a difference, but to completely rule out a small school coach is foolish

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I've been from 6A to 2A ... at each level, the speed and collisions increase ... it's amazing by how much.

Generally found that the higher you go, the less impactual you get because number separations and disparity can get you.

And it's harder to out-coach people/staffs the higher you go ... you do reach a level where everybody's staff is decent ...

Simply put from a staff perspective ... at 3A two good-uns can get you by ... at 4A it takes three ... at 5A, four ... 6A you best have three on each side of the ball.

Some small school climbers make it ... some don't ... too many variables involved to set any theory in stone.

I can say that large schools are different - going from, let's say 300 to 2100 - issues don't multiply equally in that ratio, they extend out expotentially ....

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27 minutes ago, JTFAN99 said:

So I looked up all of the coaches from the quarterfinal teams (final 8) from 5a div2 to 6a div.1. That's 32 teams in all.  Out of the 32 teams....9 of the coaches had previous HEAD coaching stints at small schools.  That is basically 1/3 of the coaches. 

Did any go straight from small school (1A through 4A) to 5A-6A? 

I thought the question was making the immediate jump from small school to big school? Someone like Keeling going from Waskom to Marshall, for example. 

Obviously most successful 5A/6A coaches are gonna have had a variety of experience, many (like you mentioned) maybe getting their first HC gig at a small school. But count me among those who are curious about coaches making the direct leap from small to big, without at least some transition in 5A/6A as an assistant or coordinator. 

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8 hours ago, ANTI said:

You say that but Carthage struggles to beat 5A D2 schools all the time. Nacogdoches, Jacksonville, Lindale...those are just a few of the 5A schools that aren't good by any stretch most years that Carthage has loss to over the years. 

So I wouldn't be so quick to question the toughness of 5A D2 from a 4A viewpoint.

When the chips are down (and if they were in the same class) and Carthage isn’t jacking around in pre-district against these 5A D2 schools you say they always lose to, there’s no question the Bulldogs beat those teams. Also, they’ve faired well against bigger schools of late.

Anti,

You can take that holier than thow, big school is king and all that matters attitude somewhere else. Your Lobos can’t finish; never have and never will under King. If Longview had Surratt they’d have at least four titles right now or more. 

Don’t question 5A D2 toughness from a 4A viewpoint, pfffttt. Carthage isn’t your run of the mill 4A team either, and don’t even try to act like they are. 

You people who think top shelf 4A D1 programs can’t compete up a classification are insane. Y’all think your boys would’ve shut down the Bulldogs last year with all those receivers and the #1 RB in the state, the #7 RB in the country who Tom Herman has given strict orders to be ready to contribute immediately for UT as a true freshman? You act like any team 4A and under has zero talent and is a bunch of 5’7” 148 pounders running 5.4 forties, you goons!!....

Completely ignorant, ignorant. Throw those blinders on and keep them on. Georgia and Alabama best be glad they didn’t have to play UCF this past year. The one handed LB very well could’ve been on the winning side of that equation, and the world would’ve been “shocked.”

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When will people understand Carthage losing to a Nacogdoches in pre-district is not a big deal to Surratt? Oh, y’all lost to Nacogdoches in 2008 so y’all can’t compete in 5A!!!!!! 😡😡😡

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6 hours ago, MavGrad99 said:

4A weight programs and such would have to adjust.  There is a bigger scope to manage in the jump from 4A to a 5A D1 or 6A....  Trust me I know... 4A it can be as simplistic as you want it and still get by on some level... in 5A with more athletes it gets a bit more complicated...

As far as Xs and Os... if you have the horses in the right spots, then I am sure any good coach can win... but developing those horses would be the interesting part in the transition.

Did you watch Cy-Fair?  Nothing fancy as far as x’s and o’s.  Only threw the ball 15 times.  Just lined up and ran the ball down midway’s throat.  

 

The carthage offense isn’t simplistic.  In fact it was prolly the most multiple and diverse of all the teams there that weekend.  I think they were just as if not more talented than your beloved Aledo too.  

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6 hours ago, BulldogBacker12 said:

Have you seen me say that? Ever? You tell about as many facts as Trump.

Don’t be bringing my president in this. 

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2 hours ago, AKA said:

Did any go straight from small school (1A through 4A) to 5A-6A? 

I thought the question was making the immediate jump from small school to big school? Someone like Keeling going from Waskom to Marshall, for example. 

Obviously most successful 5A/6A coaches are gonna have had a variety of experience, many (like you mentioned) maybe getting their first HC gig at a small school. But count me among those who are curious about coaches making the direct leap from small to big, without at least some transition in 5A/6A as an assistant or coordinator. 

Keeling has been at bigger schools prior to taking over Waskom. 

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2 hours ago, AKA said:

Did any go straight from small school (1A through 4A) to 5A-6A? 

I thought the question was making the immediate jump from small school to big school? Someone like Keeling going from Waskom to Marshall, for example. 

Obviously most successful 5A/6A coaches are gonna have had a variety of experience, many (like you mentioned) maybe getting their first HC gig at a small school. But count me among those who are curious about coaches making the direct leap from small to big, without at least some transition in 5A/6A as an assistant or coordinator. 

I remember people thinking that Waskom was crazy when they hired a soccer coach to be the AD / head football coach. 

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In all of the state championships I personally think Carthage and Manuel were the two most talented teams tgere

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22 minutes ago, Eagleborn said:

Keeling has been at bigger schools prior to taking over Waskom. 

As an AD/HC or an assistant? 

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44 minutes ago, DB2point0 said:

Did you watch Cy-Fair?  Nothing fancy as far as x’s and o’s.  Only threw the ball 15 times.  Just lined up and ran the ball down midway’s throat.  

 

The carthage offense isn’t simplistic.  In fact it was prolly the most multiple and diverse of all the teams there that weekend.  I think they were just as if not more talented than your beloved Aledo too.  

What the hell are you talking about?  Did you even read my post?  

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21 minutes ago, AKA said:

As an AD/HC or an assistant? 

Lol assistant 

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24 minutes ago, MavGrad99 said:

What the hell are you talking about?  Did you even read my post?  

You said at the 4a level you could be simplistic.  Cy-fair seemed pretty simplistic x’s and o’s-wise and they were 6a.  

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