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Interesting Under-current: Spread people vs Non-Spread People


DOB

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4 hours ago, DOB said:

Sheepshead is a salt water fish ... goatshead is cheese ... corn-based secret ingredient is highly explosive, but helps you to "cut the cheese" ....

Yep yep, remember now it's a salty catfish like a gafftop! TruDat

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8 hours ago, trueblue82 said:

There is also quite a bit of value in doing something “different” from what everyone else is doing. For example, I heard a really good coach on the radio some years back discussing his upcoming game with a certain school that ran the double wing offense. He stated “It’s the toughest week we have all year. We can’t simulate what they do in practice.” I heard another really good coach a couple of years later say the exact same thing about an upcoming playoff game against Franklin. When you can cause your opponent to be underprepared for a game, you’re halfway to victory. 

I like the way you think blue !

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9 hours ago, playactionpass39 said:

I agree with you 100%.

They only problem with that idea is that you are in the same boat versus the passing game.

As a Double Wing, run the ball 95% of the time team, you rarely work on the passing game. Your kids don't run precise routs and your lineman don't pass set well. So when you go against a team that throw it really well, you are under prepared.

And, you are at a disadvantage when you get behind in games or the opponent has a great plan to stop the run or you play a team that is bigger and stronger than you are, and you need to pass.

This is correct. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that most of the coaches you see running offenses like the wing-T or the slot-T tend to be defensive minded guys. So, they usually put defense first. Do you occasionally run into an offense that you can’t stop? Of course. Football is about matchups, and unless you’re Newton or Alabama, you’re eventually going to run into someone you don’t match up with well. Every scheme has its drawbacks. I don’t think there’s been one created yet that’s perfect. 

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The point I was trying to make with the fake QB example was that a lot of coaches now want to run the flavor of the month offense, even if it means running an offense that your kids are ill equipped for. I agree you aren’t going to win any games with the kid I described but yet I see it on a yearly basis now. 

I don’t agree that you don’t need to have speed to run the spread effectively. The whole point is getting guys in space and being able to use their speed. That’s really the only way to use that space. With all the power versions of it now you don’t necessarily need a QB that is a fantastic passer but if he’s not he’d better be able to run. 

But I also reiterate that not every shotgun offense is the spread. A lot of teams put their QB back deeper to make reads easier and to give them extra time. At the high school level that can be invaluable. But several of those teams are really just running an I or wing t or even veer offense with their QB in the shotgun.

At the root of it all there will be well over 1,000 programs in this state that are not going to win a state championship this year. You have to coach what you know , have athletes no matter what you run, and stay away from the injury bug to get there. Simply running a spread offense is not going to get you there.

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It has been interesting to read everyone's take on the matter ... 

But regardless of anybody's personal philosophy on the matter, one cannot discount the fact that the spread has changed the game.  OR has defense just become a thing of the past.  The chart below, although five years old, shows the trend.  Thinking here - although any coach could probably say it's always been this way to some degree - but the next time you visit a practice, make a note how many plays the Offense runs during their team period VS how many plays the Defense gets to run during their team period.

chart.jpg

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11 hours ago, YourKillinMePetey said:

I don’t agree that you don’t need to have speed to run the spread effectively. The whole point is getting guys in space and being able to use their speed. That’s really the only way to use that space. With all the power versions of it now you don’t necessarily need a QB that is a fantastic passer but if he’s not he’d better be able to run. 

But I also reiterate that not every shotgun offense is the spread. A lot of teams put their QB back deeper to make reads easier and to give them extra time. At the high school level that can be invaluable. But several of those teams are really just running an I or wing t or even veer offense with their QB in the shotgun.

At the root of it all there will be well over 1,000 programs in this state that are not going to win a state championship this year. You have to coach what you know , have athletes no matter what you run, and stay away from the injury bug to get there. Simply running a spread offense is not going to get you there.

And I never said you don't have to have speed to run the "spread" effectively. I said you don't have to have speed at the QB position, but it sure does make up for a lot of mistakes. To truly attack the field horizontally and vertically efficiently you most definitely have to have speed at multiple positions. But that is true of all offenses.

And on this point you are correct, many coaches have simply adapted their offensive philosophy into a shotgun formation to allow for the quick passing game, screen passing game, RPO passing game and to allow the QB more time to see the field when throwing it vertically. But really, isn't that what the "SPREAD" is at its core?

And finally, coaching what you know is definitely what is best for your team, the kids and the coaches job. Because trying to coach something you don't know will be one heck of a dumpster fire that will destroy the kids confidence in the coaches and themselves and probably get the coach fired quicker than losing.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Greezychef said:

I have a candidate for perfect defense.  At least in my mind.   

 

From a previous post, it's obviously NOT the 10-1 ... 

Let me guess ... Buddy Ryan's "Polish Goalline" Defense? ... from his actual defensive playbook ... 

polish.jpg

 

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On 12/12/2018 at 7:45 AM, Greezychef said:

I have a candidate for perfect defense.  At least in my mind.   

 

From what I have seen lately, many DC's approach stopping the Spread in the same way that Bob Uecker tried to catch a knuckleball from behind the plate.

ueck.jpg

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No discussion of each can probably be complete without considered the topics of COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE and the PARADIGM OF CHANGE.

Here's my take on Change.  It has to do with way more than football.  People in all walks of life face it every day.

The Paradigm of Change.

When you are standing on the top on one mountain, and look over and want to get to the next mountain - which happens to be very much higher than the one you are standing on - then when you start your journey to get there there's a 100% chance that you're going to encounter a VALLEY in between.

How deep and wide that VALLEY IS ultimately depends upon a lot of factors – both tangible and intangible – some within your control and some not. Regardless, there is one thing that is for certain: to reach your goal of getting to the next mountain level, you will have spend some time journeying DOWNWARD before you get to begin your trek upward. And it can sometimes take time before techniques, mindset, and skills evolve from adaptive to habitual.

In reality, no matter who are where you are at any given time or place, the road to success ALWAYS runs UPHILL – if not, anyone could get there and it would mean virtually nothing … And the only comfortable alternative is to stay and be happy with who you are, what you are, and where you are. But if you plan to be better than you are now, then you're probably going to have to be willing to do something better than what you are doing. No one ever said it would be easy, they just said it would be worth it in the end.

In the real world, I'm sure eagles would find it be much easier to nest on the ground or on the lowest branches of the forest - but instead they chose to build their nests in the very top of the tallest trees and rockiest mountains. They do this despite the fact that, as a result, their nest must be built infinitely stronger to withstand the stress and strain when the strong storm winds begin to blow. Then why do they do it? Because they would rather soar in the sky than just perch on a limb with most of the rest of the birds.

The question the coach really has to ask himself is:

Will people in the community be patient enough to allow the process of change to be completed? (How secure are you in your position as HC; are the people wanting change?)

Is this really what's best for my kids and their skillset?  Why change to X when a change to Y might be better?

Do I and my staff have the knowledge, the work ethic, and the fortitude to instigate a successful change?  Do I have the type of kids to learn a new system - confused people tend to play slower.

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19 minutes ago, Greezychef said:

Just a year ago Macron was lauded as a great uniter for his country.  A centrist.  Here we are now and his popularity is at 18 percent and its looking as though he may be overthrown by his own people.  Safe to say,  the paradigm has indeed shifted.  

Macron needs to head to Bastille ... maybe he will have better luck than the last bunch there ...

In today's world, the centrist supporters are too busy trying to make a living for their families ... 

while the radical LEFTS and RIGHTS fan the flames for their cause.

and the elitist stir the pot and wait for the masses to cancel each other out so the big dogs can inherent to roost.

People with power want money.

People with money want power.

Any of them that eventually gets both JUST WANT MORE OF BOTH.

 

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Concept #2:

COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE as it relates to football.

If you are the only one who does something and you do it pretty well, the rest of world has to change what they normally do to combat it. They have to change and you don't. And forcing someone to suddenly change the system they have been operating under (with the physical and mental skillset they were chosen for) greatly reduces the chances of them doing it well and increases the opportunity for critical error.

So ... why are the closed sets like the Slot and the Wing making a comeback and why do they suddenly seem to be in the forefront of successful programs? Well first, ALL things are cyclical – that has always been the recurrent theme of the X's and O's since the days of Alonzo Stagg and Pop Warner. When the Spread first appeared it suddenly begin to dominate the title landscape. Why? Because people were all geared to stopping the prevalent closed sets. Dealing with the Spread was new territory and DC's didn't yet understand the nuances and what adjustments were needed to put out the proverbial scoreboard flames. Then, as those older DC's were eventually put out to pasture, they were replaced by newer ones that were wiened on how to stop or slowdown the Spread. Fast Forward - here comes the return of the closed sets with OC's determined to do things that the new generations DC's know little or nothing about – playing defense with kids that were chosen for their defensive attributes to operate comfortably and independently on open areas of grass rather than having to square-off head-to-head with a more physical type of opponent and having to execute an alien set of techniques and reads. (to be continued)

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18 minutes ago, DOB said:

...here comes the return of the closed sets with OC's determined to do things that the new generations DC's know little or nothing about – playing defense with kids that were chosen for their defensive attributes to operate comfortably and independently on open areas of grass rather than having to square-off head-to-head with a more physical type of opponent and having to execute an alien set of techniques and reads. (to be continued)

Would you agree that the recent success of Central Texas vs. East Texas schools is indicative of this? 

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Just now, AKA said:

Would you agree that the recent success of Central Texas vs. East Texas schools is indicative of this? 

Point well taken ...

I don't think anybody could argue with that thought ... however, I do think that there's more to it than formation ...

I think it's also about dealing with a different type of kid - for many reasons.  There's a reason they tell the story about the turtle and the rabbit.

I think all competitive thinking centers around what your strengths and weakness are of you and your opponent ...

First to come to mind - If your opponent is faster, slow down the game - and many more that bear being talked about.

Everybody in life needs to understand their limitations ... and how to use an opponent's strength to your advantage.

Much more needs to be looked at in a final assessment.

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8 minutes ago, AKA said:

Would you agree that the recent success of Central Texas vs. East Texas schools is indicative of this? 

The only team that won in a completely "closed set" was Liberty Hill. And they were just better than Carthage last night. And Carthage is far from a " spread" team. Mason was more spread than SA and Cuero was a whole lot more "spread" than Silsbee. Not sure this years results prove anything. 

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2 minutes ago, playactionpass39 said:

The only team that won in a completely "closed set" was Liberty Hill. And they were just better than Carthage last night. And Carthage is far from a " spread" team. Mason was more spread than SA and Cuero was a whole lot more "spread" than Silsbee. Not sure this years results prove anything. 

I meant "recent" more broadly, but I take your point. 

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LIBERTY HILL has been running it forever ... tutored under Jerry Vance, now retired.

I always suspected he drove around neighborhoods looking for little kids playing touch football in their front yards in order to make sure they were lining up in the slot.

He is also interesting because he is the only person I know who worked as an asst under people who ran the L.G. Henderson version of the slot and the Doug Etheridge version.

He was a heck of a coach and a heck of a man.

men.jpg

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14 minutes ago, AKA said:

I meant "recent" more broadly, but I take your point. 

You know ... another way to think about is that what we're talking about here is more than an offense, it's an attitude.

Everybody talks about PG and their Wing-T ... Gibson is in no way a purist like the West Texas Wing-T was in the past.

But he does maintain a Wing-T attitude ... in the Championship last year, I think I counted five or six plays in the true Wing-T and most were the FB Quick Trap (for whatever reason) ... and the rest, he had them lined up all over the place.

But it was still the Wing-T attitude in his mind.

That's a fancy way of saying that no one is really a purist anymore ... nor am I advocating that they should be .... I see more ET spreads that are morphing into spread sets with Wing-T plays.

 

normal.jpglol

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24 minutes ago, playactionpass39 said:

The only team that won in a completely "closed set" was Liberty Hill. And they were just better than Carthage last night. And Carthage is far from a " spread" team. Mason was more spread than SA and Cuero was a whole lot more "spread" than Silsbee. Not sure this years results prove anything. 

We had a sayin' in the OLD DAYS ....

RULE ONE:

chalk.jpg

 

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11 hours ago, GTAlumnus said:

The spread is interesting, but I but I would never bet on 2 legged animals.

In a lot of ways, I believe the Spread has more or less stagnated – especially in the lower classes. There are many reasons I think this has taken place. And before the word STAGNATED makes the hair of the back of your Spread-oriented neck stand up, let me explain why I said that - because I don't have all the answers; but I do have the questions.

With fewer kids to choose from, it is more likely NOT to have an excellent quarterback game-ready and waiting in the wings to step up in the role year after year after year. Although I have read some nay-sayers, most believe that the Spread STARTS with the Quarterback. You got one – then the Spread is an option. You don't, then you must either change offenses OR change the primary and schematic focus of your Spread concepts. Either way, with a new one, you can't just pick up where the offense left off last year – you have to basically start over.

One of the saddest things I have seen is when a kid without the skillset (or confidence) is placed in a situation where he is not ready to be take on the role as playmaker, where the entire gameplan and success/failure of the offense, and thus the game, all falls on his young shoulders. That's too much to ask for a developing adolescent who has more things on his mind than just quarterbacking; and if you have ever TAKEN A SNAP YOURSELF, you understand what I mean.

Well, I have taken a lot of snaps and coached many others that have also taken a lot of snaps – and there's a progression of learning and experience that has to take place in the development of a QB … and with some, the “AHH-HAA” moments are few and far between – and some offenses inherently have a steeper learning curve than others – both for the player AND the staff.

Will Rogers said, “There are three kinds of men. The one who learns by reading. The few that learn by observation. And the rest of 'em who have to pee on the electric fence themselves.”   So, sometimes their toolbox needs to be lightened – you don't throw the toolbox away, you just have to limit the tools they  have available in order to speed the learning of all the skills necessary to become a master carpenter. In other words, don't put a kid on a backhoe, when he has not yet mastered the use of a shovel.

(to be continued)

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I have run both the pure versions of the Slot-T and the West Texas Wing-T … over the years, I was fortunate enough to coach for, coach with, or have the opportunity to pick the brains of some the masters of these attacks. And years later, when I had an exceptional tailback, I developed a Variable-I offense that was inundated with concepts from both. That didn't make me smart – but it did help me realize that I was much better at calling plays with an All-State Tailback than I was without one.

And during the span, I also benefited from observing how DC's tried to stop the Slot and the Wing. What I saw was that most of them tried to stop both using the same methodology – and the end result was that I arrived at the conclusion that if anyone does this, they are NOT going to be pleased with the ultimate outcome. While they are similar in perceived structure, they are very different in theory and method of attack. Which is why I guess that Essary at Athens and Lawson at Joaquin attempt to mix the two – and I mention them only because they do mix both and I have had the opportunity to watch them regularly and intently in recent times.

With that being said and getting back to the original statement – another issue in stagnation is the problem of TIME. To be quite honest, time is usually the greatest equalizer and evaluator in determining a Spread (or any) team's limitations at the HS level. – either practice/teaching time OR the time necessary to execute in game situations. The art of reading coverages for progression takes a lot of reps to master – and even when mastered, in game situations the QB must have enough ticks on the stopwatch to have the opportunity make and execute the desired alternate read. I have never coached the Spread – it came along after my coaching or playing days were over – but I am confident enough to think that I could. However, I would never consent to running it unless the guys lining up in front on the LOS are proficient enough to consistently protect the QB – I may be in the minority here, but I would rather run a two-yard dive than lose eight on a sack. And I certainly don't envy any staff's gallant efforts to teach progression theory and protection schemes in the limited time allowed today on the practice field. In reality, as a coach you probably can only take the average HS QB so far – after the teaching is over with – it becomes all about the QB's talent and work ethic – not just the learning but using what he learned in a diligent and timely matter – and all under the pressure of the moment.  For that reason, I believe the advanced Spread theory so successful at the college level is hard to achieve at the HS level - especially at the lower classes where there's not a coach for every position on the field.

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