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UT A&M negotiations for renewing rivalry


trueblue82

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2 hours ago, TxFight said:

My personal opinion on the draft and those rankings etc is this. This is not a knock on any one style, conference etc either, just my observation.

1) The NFL game and the NCAA game are still way different from each other. The gap is closing in style of play, but the NFL has a very specific style of play for the most part. If you were to take team & player names off of box scores, it would be very difficult to even begin to narrow down and tell the teams apart. Not true in the NCAA. 

2) The SEC style of play is the closest you can get to an NFL style of play in college football. Just as in #1 though, it is beginning to change, but it is still very NFLish in how it is played. 

3) The NFL is very closed minded when it comes to what they want their football team to look like and be made up of personnel wise. Because of this, they are going to go with what they are familiar with more often than not. It is easy to "grade" an alabama box player on defense because A) they play a very NFL style of defense (predicated on stopping the run against TE formations etc) and B) they are playing that style of defense against offenses that play an NFL style of game. Unless a player is just miles ahead, why take a risk on a Big 12 box player who you haven't seen play against many TE run game teams, when you can take the SEC kid who you have a really good idea of what he can do defending NFL type offenses.

4) Because of the thoughts in #3, offensive players in the SEC are also valued higher. If you are good in the SEC on offense as an individual, you are good against NFL style defenses and you have played for the most part in an NFL style offense already. Same thought process goes here as far as grading and the risk of drafting a Big 12 WR vs. an SEC WR or a big 12 RB vs an SEC RB or really any offensive position for that matter. Is one better than the other? Impossible to tell in most cases, but familiarity and comfortability in what you are seeing on tape of a kid IMO outweighs the risk in most cases.

5) All of the above then comes back on recruiting and IMO is widening the gap between the Big 12 and the SEC, especially on the defensive side of the ball. If you are a box defensive player, why on earth would you go to the Big 12 and play against those offenses on a weekly basis, when you can go to the SEC, where your draft chances are much better, and perceptionally play a style of play much more similar to the NFL.  

And just to reiterate again, this is not a knock on any conference or style. And as I've mentioned I think the NFL to NCAA gap of playing style is starting to close, and I think the SEC vs Big 12 style of play gap is starting to close. But perception is reality and the NFL and SEC are alot more similar than the Big 12 and the SEC. Believe it or not, KK may have a big part in the NFL continuing to dip down into the NCAA for coaches/style of play. If he fails, the NFL may start to steer clear of that style of play.

Post of the year right here. A most excellent assessment. 

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4 hours ago, TxFight said:

My personal opinion on the draft and those rankings etc is this. This is not a knock on any one style, conference etc either, just my observation.

1) The NFL game and the NCAA game are still way different from each other. The gap is closing in style of play, but the NFL has a very specific style of play for the most part. If you were to take team & player names off of box scores, it would be very difficult to even begin to narrow down and tell the teams apart. Not true in the NCAA. 

2) The SEC style of play is the closest you can get to an NFL style of play in college football. Just as in #1 though, it is beginning to change, but it is still very NFLish in how it is played. 

3) The NFL is very closed minded when it comes to what they want their football team to look like and be made up of personnel wise. Because of this, they are going to go with what they are familiar with more often than not. It is easy to "grade" an alabama box player on defense because A) they play a very NFL style of defense (predicated on stopping the run against TE formations etc) and B) they are playing that style of defense against offenses that play an NFL style of game. Unless a player is just miles ahead, why take a risk on a Big 12 box player who you haven't seen play against many TE run game teams, when you can take the SEC kid who you have a really good idea of what he can do defending NFL type offenses.

4) Because of the thoughts in #3, offensive players in the SEC are also valued higher. If you are good in the SEC on offense as an individual, you are good against NFL style defenses and you have played for the most part in an NFL style offense already. Same thought process goes here as far as grading and the risk of drafting a Big 12 WR vs. an SEC WR or a big 12 RB vs an SEC RB or really any offensive position for that matter. Is one better than the other? Impossible to tell in most cases, but familiarity and comfortability in what you are seeing on tape of a kid IMO outweighs the risk in most cases.

5) All of the above then comes back on recruiting and IMO is widening the gap between the Big 12 and the SEC, especially on the defensive side of the ball. If you are a box defensive player, why on earth would you go to the Big 12 and play against those offenses on a weekly basis, when you can go to the SEC, where your draft chances are much better, and perceptionally play a style of play much more similar to the NFL. 

And just to reiterate again, this is not a knock on any conference or style. And as I've mentioned I think the NFL to NCAA gap of playing style is starting to close, and I think the SEC vs Big 12 style of play gap is starting to close. But perception is reality and the NFL and SEC are alot more similar than the Big 12 and the SEC. Believe it or not, KK may have a big part in the NFL continuing to dip down into the NCAA for coaches/style of play. If he fails, the NFL may start to steer clear of that style of play.

Great post! 

Poona Ford is a perfect example of what you’re saying. He wins Big12 defensive lineman of the year and goes undrafted to the Seahawks. Mid way through the year he’s starting and finished the year as the highest rated rookie dlineman. 

No way he goes undrafted if he played in the SEC or Big10.

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5 hours ago, DB2point0 said:

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/ranking/schedule-strength-by-other?date=2018-01-08

 

your argument has typically been overall schedule was tougher due to playing in a tougher conference.  I’m not digging through a years worth of posts, but iirc the facts were posted and the Big12 as a whole had higher ranked schedules and a higher average in ‘17

 

i know aTm had a tougher schedule in ‘18, but they were 5th and Texas was 12th.  I was only bringing up the ‘17 season to show that you were ignoring facts.  That’s all.  You always want stats, but ignore them when they don’t support your argument

I didn’t ignore facts. You just don’t understand arguments is all. 

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5 hours ago, DB2point0 said:

Sec defenses have always looked statistically better due to poor offenses and offensive strategy.  As the offenses have evolved in the last decade their defenses have looked worse.  Now they’re started to get exposed in bowl games.  

 

To yourr second paragraph.  That is largely in part to Alabama and Georgia.  I believe they combined for 19 of the sec’s Draft picks...36%

theyre typically 2 top rated recruiting ranked teams in the team rankings

looking back again auburn LSU had 11 draft picks.  That 30 of 53 draft picks coming from 4 teams.  That leaves 23 split up between 10 teams.  Sounds like conference bragging again.  

Conference bragging? This is a conference strength of talent debate you mouth breather. Of course the top end teams have more talent. That’s not conference bragging that’s common sense. 

The fact is no matter how you want to slice it, A&M plays against elite talent far more than Texas does every year from an individual position standpoint. That’s my only argument. I don’t care about your sec butthurt or that you want to bring up other arguments to try deflect. Fact is A&M is playing against much better defense lines than Texas does and it has nothing to do with how a team does statistically. I’m talking about the fact that there will be tons of nfl draft picks scattered all across sec defense lines this year and the big 12 might have 5 drafted total. And most of those are really pash rushing 3-4 OLBs. So yes that makes a difference in stats. The fact that one LT was facing a draft pick most weeks while the other was facing a CFL player. It makes a difference whether you want to admit it or not.

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I think the point most of the others are trying to make is just because the BIG 12 guys aren't "draft picks" has apparently shown to mean very little...many to most are truthfully just as talented as those "studly" guys with that SEC sewn on their jersey...sorry gotta go rub some cortisone cream on my sore butt. #yeahright 

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9 minutes ago, CoachPelvisPresley said:

I think the point most of the others are trying to make is just because the BIG 12 guys aren't "draft picks" has apparently shown to mean very little...many to most are truthfully just as talented as those "studly" guys with that SEC sewn on their jersey...sorry gotta go rub some cortisone cream on my sore butt. #yeahright 

Poona Ford is the exception, not the rule. 

I’m not saying there aren’t some very good big 12 players in the nfl. I’m saying that if you really watch the game and really focus on defensive line play, the sec is just far superior in terms of production and natural ability from player standpoints. And that was how this argument started. I said the sec defensive lines were better than big 12 defensive lines so comparing offensive line numbers of two teams from each conference is difficult to do and more than just looking at numbers. That’s all. 

I don’t for a second think that the average big 12 defensive line is “just as talented” as the sec defensive lines like you say. I’m not knocking one or bragging on the other, I’m just using a football brain to watch and seeing what I see. Just like I think big 12 QBs are far superior to SEC QBs. 

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39 minutes ago, WETSU said:

I didn’t ignore facts. You just don’t understand arguments is all. 

You said aTm had a tougher schedule in ‘17.  Stats proved otherwise.  You said the sec as a whole was tougher, stats proved that the Big12 as a whole had a higher avg schedule ranking.  You said the sec had 14 teams should only look at top 10 teams since Big12 only had 10.  I explained what average meant.  Maybe you didn’t understand what you were arguing.  

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20 minutes ago, WETSU said:

Poona Ford is the exception, not the rule. 

I’m not saying there aren’t some very good big 12 players in the nfl. I’m saying that if you really watch the game and really focus on defensive line play, the sec is just far superior in terms of production and natural ability from player standpoints. And that was how this argument started. I said the sec defensive lines were better than big 12 defensive lines so comparing offensive line numbers of two teams from each conference is difficult to do and more than just looking at numbers. That’s all. 

I don’t for a second think that the average big 12 defensive line is “just as talented” as the sec defensive lines like you say. I’m not knocking one or bragging on the other, I’m just using a football brain to watch and seeing what I see. Just like I think big 12 QBs are far superior to SEC QBs. 

Charles Omenihu....., has 10.5 sacks and good tfl numbers.  In a quicker paced quick strike offensive league.  He was conference DL of the year.  He’ll prolly go in the 3-5 rounds.  Had he played in the sec those numbers would’ve been higher most likely as he’d have seen more 5-7 step drops by QBs and less screens, and would’ve seen more Runs on first down.  He’ll prolly be a good pickup for a team and end up a starter by year 2.  

 

As the Sec offenses continue to evolve to more spread/quick strike you’ll see the defensive numbers get more skewed.  Same for the nfl

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39 minutes ago, WETSU said:

Conference bragging? This is a conference strength of talent debate you mouth breather. Of course the top end teams have more talent. That’s not conference bragging that’s common sense. 

The fact is no matter how you want to slice it, A&M plays against elite talent far more than Texas does every year from an individual position standpoint. That’s my only argument. I don’t care about your sec butthurt or that you want to bring up other arguments to try deflect. Fact is A&M is playing against much better defense lines than Texas does and it has nothing to do with how a team does statistically. I’m talking about the fact that there will be tons of nfl draft picks scattered all across sec defense lines this year and the big 12 might have 5 drafted total. And most of those are really pash rushing 3-4 OLBs. So yes that makes a difference in stats. The fact that one LT was facing a draft pick most weeks while the other was facing a CFL player. It makes a difference whether you want to admit it or not.

You’re bragging on draft picks by conference......4 teams in your conference produced 56% of the sec’s draft picks leaving the other 44% between 10 teams.  That’s hanging your aTm hat on those 4 teams hat rack......conference bragging, sec chant, whatever you wish to call it.  

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9 minutes ago, DB2point0 said:

You’re bragging on draft picks by conference......4 teams in your conference produced 56% of the sec’s draft picks leaving the other 44% between 10 teams.  That’s hanging your aTm hat on those 4 teams hat rack......conference bragging, sec chant, whatever you wish to call it.  

You can't just arbitrarily exclude those teams. For someone who brags about knowing what averages are, you sure are working hard to show you don't understand what it means lmao!

Sure, those 4 teams produced almost 60% of the draft picks. And teams like Kentucky or Vanderbilt produced closer to 0. On average, the teams in the SEC have more draft picks. Same as you argued the average Big 12 team had a tougher strength of schedule. You could also say, "Well the top 3 teams in the Big XII made up most of that SoS, so you're conference bragging if you think the Big 12 has tougher SoS overall".

That's how averages work, after all. 

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21 minutes ago, JohnnyFootball said:

You can't just arbitrarily exclude those teams. For someone who brags about knowing what averages are, you sure are working hard to show you don't understand what it means lmao!

Sure, those 4 teams produced almost 60% of the draft picks. And teams like Kentucky or Vanderbilt produced closer to 0. On average, the teams in the SEC have more draft picks. Same as you argued the average Big 12 team had a tougher strength of schedule. You could also say, "Well the top 3 teams in the Big XII made up most of that SoS, so you're conference bragging if you think the Big 12 has tougher SoS overall".

That's how averages work, after all. 

Even if you’d just taken the sec’s top ten it would’ve been close.  Proves one is even more top heavy

 

all of that was mentioned just to prove one guy in particular does indeed ignore facts.  That’s all

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and so breaking all this down...nothing means nothing until lawmakers, hippies, pharisees, palm readers, #### sniffers, big money donors, cowboy boot stretchers, pro horseshoers and the school administrators sign off on playing the Horns vs Aggies series again...hallelujah, God bless America!!!

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2 hours ago, DB2point0 said:

Charles Omenihu....., has 10.5 sacks and good tfl numbers.  In a quicker paced quick strike offensive league.  He was conference DL of the year.  He’ll prolly go in the 3-5 rounds.  Had he played in the sec those numbers would’ve been higher most likely as he’d have seen more 5-7 step drops by QBs and less screens, and would’ve seen more Runs on first down.  He’ll prolly be a good pickup for a team and end up a starter by year 2.  

 

As the Sec offenses continue to evolve to more spread/quick strike you’ll see the defensive numbers get more skewed.  Same for the nfl

His combine hurt him. But you’re acting like I’m saying there isn’t a single big 12 player that doesn’t put up decent numbers. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying the sec defensive lines are bigger, stronger and faster on average than the big 12 defensive lines. They are filled with higher end athletes. That’s very apparent when you watch the games of both leagues. That’s not me tooting any kind of horn that’s just what it is. And the bigger, stronger, faster the players on one side of the ball, it’s harder for the offensive lines to deal with them. That’s what I’m talking about when I say you have to consider what they are playing against when comparing offensive stats. That’s what I’ve been saying the whole time. 

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2 hours ago, DB2point0 said:

You said aTm had a tougher schedule in ‘17.  Stats proved otherwise.  You said the sec as a whole was tougher, stats proved that the Big12 as a whole had a higher avg schedule ranking.  You said the sec had 14 teams should only look at top 10 teams since Big12 only had 10.  I explained what average meant.  Maybe you didn’t understand what you were arguing.  

Pull up the thread. I’ll make you look like the fool you are once again. 

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2 hours ago, DB2point0 said:

You’re bragging on draft picks by conference......4 teams in your conference produced 56% of the sec’s draft picks leaving the other 44% between 10 teams.  That’s hanging your aTm hat on those 4 teams hat rack......conference bragging, sec chant, whatever you wish to call it.  

I’m not bragging about anything. I’m showing you stats. I’m showing you the sec has better defensive lines. I know you aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed, but it’s time you picked this argument up. 

So what if 4 teams make up the majority of draft picks? The big 12 also has 4 teams that could make up the majority of draft picks and still don’t. Because the leagues defensive lines aren’t as good. It doesn’t matter if you want to look at top 4 teams or top 10 teams or all teams. Fact is, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about when it comes to evaluating talent in certain positions and you want to use your general (well Bama LSU too good and the rest average) argument when it doesn’t even fit the narrative here. 

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1 hour ago, WETSU said:

His combine hurt him. But you’re acting like I’m saying there isn’t a single big 12 player that doesn’t put up decent numbers. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying the sec defensive lines are bigger, stronger and faster on average than the big 12 defensive lines. They are filled with higher end athletes. That’s very apparent when you watch the games of both leagues. That’s not me tooting any kind of horn that’s just what it is. And the bigger, stronger, faster the players on one side of the ball, it’s harder for the offensive lines to deal with them. That’s what I’m talking about when I say you have to consider what they are playing against when comparing offensive stats. That’s what I’ve been saying the whole time. 

I was giving another example, that’s all

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