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Astros Stealing Signs?

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13 minutes ago, mellon said:

Stealing signs is not prohibited, but using electronic devises to do so is TABOO according to the Commissioner of Major League Baseball.

That falls on Cora and Beltran in my opinion.   I don't want to throw Altuve under the bus, but he did have a slump last year, and many thought it was because of his contract.  Correa has had issues with injuries, and what happened to Gattis.  He could swat a ball out of the park, but couldn't hit a strike half the time.     As I've  said before, knowing the pitch that is coming doesn't guarantee a hit, even if you're bunting.  

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9 hours ago, mellon said:

Stealing signs is not prohibited, but using electronic devises to do so is TABOO according to the Commissioner of Major League Baseball.

I'm like kirt....show me the page, paragraph, sub-paragraph and line that says this in the MLB rule book.....just because some overpaid jerk says it is there does not make it so........give me book, chapter, and verse........

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14 hours ago, DaveTV1 said:

It's been going on since they first started making signs for both pitches, hitting, and base running. What is sort of amazing is there isn't a rule against stealing signs, but using electronic devices.  Anyone that thinks sign stealing doesn't happen at every level hasn't played baseball for more than their initial four years in Little League, before reaching Pony League level which is called Intermediate League by some.  In Babe Ruth League Baseball it would be the Cal Ripken formerly the Bambino Division Major 70.  

The only reason I think they're making a big whoop out of this is because the Astros and then the Red Sox won the World Series.  I did see Carlos Beltran either stepped down or was let go by the Mets.  I actually think Luhnow and Hinch could file a lawsuit if they wanted to since there isn't a specific written rule regarding it.  Hinch did try to reign it in, but it would have been bad for the clubhouse.  As I've pointed out before offensive stats did not go up for the Astros in a large enough degree to impose the sanctions.   

Lol uh no. Sign stealing in baseball is gamesmanship. Catcher tipping signs? You can steal them. Pitcher tipping pitches? Steal them. That's part of baseball. Be better at hiding them.

What's 100% cheating and life ban worthy is using technology (i.e. buzzers, cameras) that your opponent does not have access to, to steal signs. That's a clear disadvantage to the away team. Take off your blue and orange glasses. It's cheating. It's not "because the Astros and Red Sox won the World Series." 

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14 hours ago, JohnnyFootball said:

Glad you post this before quoting scripture. Smh

He's a hypocrite. Nothing new.

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On 11/15/2019 at 8:03 AM, WestHardinfan1 said:

If  you are not doing everything possible to give your team the advantage over your opponent, you are not doing your job.....see the Richard Petty quote from above.......

Proverbs 10:9

"Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but whoever takes the crooked paths will be found out."

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2 hours ago, WestHardinfan1 said:

I'm like kirt....show me the page, paragraph, sub-paragraph and line that says this in the MLB rule book.....just because some overpaid jerk says it is there does not make it so........give me book, chapter, and verse........

If your boss tells you not to do something and you go ahead and do it then you have to pay the price.

They cheated and no amount of trying to sugar coat it or trying to divert the rules like some Democratic representative will ever change the fact. 

 

Stealing signs is not necessarily a violation of Major League Baseball's (MLB) rulebook; it depends how the signs are stolen.[5][6] At the December 1961 Winter Meetings, the National League banned the use of a "mechanical device" to steal signs.[7] The use of electronic equipment is not specifically forbidden by MLB rules, but in 2001, Sandy Alderson, while serving as executive vice president for baseball operations of MLB, issued a memorandum stating that teams cannot use electronic equipment to communicate with each other during games, especially for the purpose of stealing signs.[8] Before the 2019 season, Rob Manfred, the commissioner of baseball, instituted specific prohibitions on where teams could position cameras and how instant replay officials can communicate with managers in an effort to reduce illicit sign stealing.[9][10]

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Want to get rid of the problem? Get rid of replay. As long as there are replay cameras all over stadiums, this will be a problem...

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1 hour ago, ETXfan16 said:

Proverbs 10:9

"Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but whoever takes the crooked paths will be found out."

That is correct....BUT, Matthew 7:13 - 14

Matthew 7:13-14 English Standard Version (ESV)

13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 

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24 minutes ago, mellon said:

If your boss tells you not to do something and you go ahead and do it then you have to pay the price.

 

If my boss tells me not to do something that is not mentioned as being under his authority in company policy, he can expect to get a grievance filed ASAP......

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26 minutes ago, mellon said:

 

 

Stealing signs is not necessarily a violation of Major League Baseball's (MLB) rulebook; it depends how the signs are stolen.[5][6] At the December 1961 Winter Meetings, the National League banned the use of a "mechanical device" to steal signs.[7] The use of electronic equipment is not specifically forbidden by MLB rules, but in 2001, Sandy Alderson, while serving as executive vice president for baseball operations of MLB, issued a memorandum stating that teams cannot use electronic equipment to communicate with each other during games, especially for the purpose of stealing signs.[8] Before the 2019 season, Rob Manfred, the commissioner of baseball, instituted specific prohibitions on where teams could position cameras and how instant replay officials can communicate with managers in an effort to reduce illicit sign stealing.[9][10]

Thank you....that's all I wanted to see.......NOTHING in the Rule Book just a lot of PC BS .......

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16 hours ago, DaveTV1 said:

God has never condemned spies.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+2&version=GW  .  Rahab was justified in the New Testament as well.  Rahab was a distant Grandmother of our Savior Matthew 1:1-25 and James 2:25.  

Show me in MLB scripture (rule book) where stealing signs is prohibited before you cast your stone.   

 

He bragged about cheating... Playing semantics doesn't change that.

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42 minutes ago, JohnnyFootball said:

He bragged about cheating... Playing semantics doesn't change that.

If it ain't in the RULE BOOK, it ain't cheating.....period.......IF you can quote me FROM THE RULE BOOK OF MLB that it is prohibited, I'll concede the point.......

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15 minutes ago, WestHardinfan1 said:

If it ain't in the RULE BOOK, it ain't cheating.....period.......IF you can quote me FROM THE RULE BOOK OF MLB that it is prohibited, I'll concede the point.......

Then we don't need a commissioner in any sport. Just have a rule book and let each team govern themselves.

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Just now, mellon said:

Then we don't need a commissioner in any sport. Just have a rule book and let each team govern themselves.

I'm all for it.......

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3 hours ago, WestHardinfan1 said:

That is correct....BUT, Matthew 7:13 - 14

Matthew 7:13-14 English Standard Version (ESV)

13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 

We can take it over to the religion thread if you want because I don't want to be derail this one, but I'm interested to hear your interpretation of these two verses. 

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Just now, ETXfan16 said:

We can take it over to the religion thread if you want because I don't want to be derail this one, but I'm interested to hear your interpretation of these two verses. 

Start the thread......

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11 hours ago, ETXfan16 said:

Lol uh no. Sign stealing in baseball is gamesmanship. Catcher tipping signs? You can steal them. Pitcher tipping pitches? Steal them. That's part of baseball. Be better at hiding them.

What's 100% cheating and life ban worthy is using technology (i.e. buzzers, cameras) that your opponent does not have access to, to steal signs. That's a clear disadvantage to the away team. Take off your blue and orange glasses. It's cheating. It's not "because the Astros and Red Sox won the World Series." 

You know back in the steroid era everyone said that the ball was juiced, but it was the players.  Last year was the year of the home run, and people again were claiming the balls were juiced, maybe everyone was cheating.  The Brewers lead the league in home runs hit.  Who was on their team, ex-Astro Marwin Gonzalez.  If it was such a clear disadvantage to the away team, then why did the Away team win every game in the World Series also a first.  https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/27731274/inside-long-list-home-run-records-set-2019.  It's league wide thing not just an Astros thing. 

As for Mike Trout, he hit 35 home runs in the minor leagues with 1221 at bats.  Just last year with the Angels he hit 45 home runs with 470 at bats.  Take a look at his rookie photo vs. today, and they are similar to Barry Bonds.  I'm not saying he uses roids, but somethings not right with that.  https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=trout-001mik

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9 hours ago, WestHardinfan1 said:

If my boss tells me not to do something that is not mentioned as being under his authority in company policy, he can expect to get a grievance filed ASAP......

Exactly why I think Hinch and Luhnow have a case for their salaries to be paid. Hinch destroyed two monitors, and didn't want it happening.  Just as kids in a classroom will attempt to cheat he wasn't able to stop it, and to keep the clubhouse together he turned a blind eye.  I brought up Jose Altuve, and can we believe him ?  https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/01/17/jose-altuve-denies-that-he-wore-electronic-device-to-tip-pitches/23902860/ .  I think this is going to go on like deflategate.  As I said with that anyone that's played football with a under or over deflated football is not going to perform as well as one that is properly inflated.  The debate is going to go on and on for a while in my opinion.  

We've seen this before, and it will happen again.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_Heard_'Round_the_World_(baseball)#Sign_stealing  :  

In ensuing years, rumors began to circulate that during the second half of the 1951 season, the Giants engaged in systematic sign stealing—stealing the finger signals transmitted from catcher to pitcher that determine the pitch to be thrown. The Associated Press reported the rumor in 1962, but with no specifics, and based on an anonymous source.[41] In 2001, many of the 21 Giants players still alive at the time, and one surviving coach, told the Wall Street Journal that beginning on July 20, the team used a telescope in the Giants clubhouse behind center field, manned by infielder Hank Schenz and later by coach Herman Franks, to steal the finger signals of opposing catchers. Stolen signs were relayed via a buzzer wire connected from the clubhouse to telephones in the Giants dugout and bullpen—one buzz for a fastball, two for an off-speed pitch. "Every hitter knew what was coming," said pitcher Al Gettel. "Made a big difference."[41] Joshua Prager, the author of the Journal article, outlined the evidence in greater detail in a 2006 book.[42]

Although backup catcher Sal Yvars told Prager that he relayed Rube Walker's fastball sign to Thomson from the bullpen, Thomson repeatedly insisted that he was concentrating on the situation, and did not take the sign.[43] Branca made no public comment at the time. "I made a decision not to speak about it," he said. "I didn't want to look like I was crying over spilled milk."[41]Later he told The New York Times, "I didn't want to diminish a legendary moment in baseball. And even if Bobby knew what was coming, he had to hit it ... Knowing the pitch doesn't always help."[44] In another interview, Branca pointed out that luck and circumstance were involved as well; had the coin toss gone the other way, Thomson's Shot would not have been a home run at Ebbets Field—nor would the game-winner he hit in the first playoff game have been a homer at the Polo Grounds.[9]

Whether the telescope-and-buzzer system contributed significantly to the Giants' late-season 37–7 win streak remains a subject of debate.[45] Prager notes in his book that sign stealing was not specifically forbidden by MLB rules at the time and, moral issues aside, "...has been a part of baseball since its inception".[46] Sign stealing using optical or other mechanical aids was outlawed by MLB in 1961.[43]

 

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8 hours ago, WestHardinfan1 said:

If it ain't in the RULE BOOK, it ain't cheating.....period.......IF you can quote me FROM THE RULE BOOK OF MLB that it is prohibited, I'll concede the point.......

Yeah but there’s that word integrity. Astros were my 2nd favorite team. I’m disappointed they did this. The organization is being punished but the players are very fortunate so far they haven’t been disciplined. I think many of them have lost respect around the league. That’s a shame not sure they had to cheat to win you can’t take the championship away from them but it will always be tainted. I hate it all for the city of Houston they waited a long time. Like I said I’m not positive they had to cheat. Hopefully time will heal this but I’m afraid it could get uglier 

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I don't think baseball wants to look any further into sign stealing because they will find a lot more teams doing the same thing the Astros and Boston was doing. As I said in another post MLB could have fixed all this stuff with a simple delay signal and not allowing baseball teams to have their own cameras. 

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Seems kinda of silly . Every team is doing this to some degree. If the Astros had beaten someone else other than the butthurt Yankees and Dodgers than this wouldn't be an issue. If you noticed someone stealing signs it up to you to stop it.  Houston was the better team and deserved the ring. Also if one team was cheating wouldn't said team be pretty much dominant at home and struggle on the road?

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1 hour ago, Champ1000 said:

Seems kinda of silly . Every team is doing this to some degree. If the Astros had beaten someone else other than the butthurt Yankees and Dodgers than this wouldn't be an issue. If you noticed someone stealing signs it up to you to stop it.  Houston was the better team and deserved the ring. Also if one team was cheating wouldn't said team be pretty much dominant at home and struggle on the road?

I don't know about any other teams, but that might change in the future after further investigations. I do know that the Astros were BUSTED and will forever be known as Cheaters whether they needed to do so to win or not.

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1 hour ago, Sportsfanatic1 said:

Question- Is finding a loophole on my income taxes considered "cheating"?

No.....

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