Garrison AD/HF

[KirtFalcon]

2 hours ago, trueblue82 said:

While we’re discussing it, you’ve been pretty outspoken about Garrison being one-dimensional. The local team you keep bringing up as what you would like to see them emulate is Joaquin. You are aware that Joaquin runs the football roughly 95% of the time, right? 

Yes, but it maximizes efficiency and makes it harder for defenses to key on one player, also you could mix in more passes with the right QB.  Anything is better than what I have seen the past couple of years.  Year before last Porter was a beast, but sooner or later someone shuts down your one dimensional offense and there goes your offense.  With the athletes we have had, there is no reason we couldn't  have gone farther. In an offense that used all the talent efficiently ...

[Bulldog64]

18 hours ago, yarddog88 said:

Yes that's 95% of the time with a chance of 4 ball carriers on each snap not just 1. And I dont want to hear about keying off what the linemen are doing that's hog wash. 16 17 and young 18 year old kids just flow to the ball carrier. This ain't the sec.

laughable, they play assignment football.  I guarantee you 90% of teams key on linemen and not backfield flow.  Otherwise slot-t teams would be playing in jerry world year in and year out.  Eye candy only gets you so far.

[Bulldog64]

On 12/25/2019 at 9:56 PM, KirtFalcon said:

Yes, but it maximizes efficiency and makes it harder for defenses to key on one player, also you could mix in more passes with the right QB.  Anything is better than what I have seen the past couple of years.  Year before last Porter was a beast, but sooner or later someone shuts down your one dimensional offense and there goes your offense.  With the athletes we have had, there is no reason we couldn't  have gone farther. In an offense that used all the talent efficiently ...

We had no line and no ready quarterback. Come up with an offense that maximizes no line and inexperienced quarterback.  The boys gave it their all, we just didn’t have one who was varsity ready really.  
Yeah, our skill kids were fantastic, but games are won in the trenches, and you know that.  You’re just putting blinders on because you don’t like the offensive style as much as the slot-t apparently.  If we would’ve run Joaquin’s offense we would’ve done worse, because the way to stop slot-t teams is to gain penetration from the d-line at the snap.  And that would’ve happened immediately with our offensive line 

[GTown12]

Bulldog64 was it a secret that our line was gonna need to step up this year or have we known this for at least a yr? What did we do to help get them ready before August got here as coaches? I heard way more excuses about the players than I did accepting responsibility about the lack of preparation this year.

[Bulldog64]

42 minutes ago, GTown12 said:

Bulldog64 was it a secret that our line was gonna need to step up this year or have we known this for at least a yr? What did we do to help get them ready before August got here as coaches? I heard way more excuses about the players than I did accepting responsibility about the lack of preparation this year.

That’s a fair question, but they knew.  And I believe they actually had linemen camps after school in the spring semester where they worked out, and ran through run blocking schemes with just the linemen.  And some of the new linemen didn’t show up.  Also, the summer workouts that the coaches put on, a lot of the kids didn’t show up to those too.  You can’t make kids show up to that, they have to want it 

Also this isn’t college.  You can’t just replace kids in high school, especially 2A, so it’s not really a matter of “did we get them ready”.  You either have the kids, or don’t, and this year we didn’t.  Also, when you have 4 starting linemen get hurt over the course of a season, there are going to be issues.

Also, What makes you say that there was a lack of preparation? The coaches didn’t just show up in August and “give it their best shot”.  Also I don’t think any of the coaches will ever blame the kids.  If you asked them, they would take 100% of the responsibility.  They’d go to bat for them any day of the week, even now that they don’t coach them anymore.  But it’s easy to see that our lines were overmatched this year.

[trueblue82]

3 hours ago, Bulldog64 said:

We had no line and no actual quarterback. Come up with an offense that maximizes no line and no quarterback.  The Rodriguez kid is great, and he gave his all at it, but he’s just not a quarterback, and we didn’t have one who was varsity ready really.  
Yeah, our skill kids were fantastic, but games are won in the trenches, and you know that.  You’re just putting blinders on because you don’t like the offensive style as much as the slot-t apparently.  If we would’ve run Joaquin’s offense we would’ve done worse, because the way to stop slot-t teams is to gain penetration from the d-line at the snap.  And that would’ve happened immediately with our offensive line 

It’s rare for a team to switch to the slot-t and set the world on fire their first year running it, especially if you’re going from a completely different blocking scheme. We went to it in ‘15 switching from the double wing. We went 5-5 and missed the playoffs. What you’re seeing now is kids that have run nothing but the slot-t, and from what I see (up close) it’s constantly evolving. My point is, the slot-t is not something you can switch to for one year and switch back to the spread. You have to commit to it long term. 

[GTown12]

The new AD/HC whoever that will be has some really good years ahead of him in several sports for at least 5-6 yrs I know! Exciting times are coming!

[Bulldog64]

9 minutes ago, trueblue82 said:

It’s rare for a team to switch to the slot-t and set the world on fire their first year running it, especially if you’re going from a completely different blocking scheme. We went to it in ‘15 switching from the double wing. We went 5-5 and missed the playoffs. What you’re seeing now is kids that have run nothing but the slot-t, and from what I see (up close) it’s constantly evolving. My point is, the slot-t is not something you can switch to for one year and switch back to the spread. You have to commit to it long term. 

I don’t have any issues with the a slot-t, honestly.  I think it’s an interesting system, I just don’t know much about it, but when run well it’s a beautifully frustrating thing to watch.  I know your linemen have to be technicians, which is why even if Garrison had been running it for a while it still wouldn’t have worked this year, our linemen weren’t good for it.  Would’ve been probably the worst system to run.

[Bulldog64]

15 minutes ago, GTown12 said:

The new AD/HC whoever that will be has some really good years ahead of him in several sports for at least 5-6 yrs I know! Exciting times are coming!

True statement.  Garrison will be good for awhile with the athletes coming up.

[trueblue82]

9 minutes ago, Bulldog64 said:

I don’t have any issues with the a slot-t, honestly.  I think it’s an interesting system, I just don’t know much about it, but when run well it’s a beautifully frustrating thing to watch.  I know your linemen have to be technicians, which is why even if Garrison had been running it for a while it still wouldn’t have worked this year, our linemen weren’t good for it.  Would’ve been probably the worst system to run.

Honestly I don’t see it being a great system for Garrison, at least not the version of it that we run. Our system is tailored to the small, quick linemen that we currently have. Aside from our 315 pound center, our O-line the last two years was relatively small, but they were very quick, strong as bulls, and yes, very sound on technique. A large part of that happens from January-May when those kids are in the off-season program. 

[Bulldog64]

4 minutes ago, trueblue82 said:

Honestly I don’t see it being a great system for Garrison, at least not the version of it that we run. Our system is tailored to the small, quick linemen that we currently have. Aside from our 315 pound center, our O-line the last two years was relatively small, but they were very quick, strong as bulls, and yes, very sound on technique. A large part of that happens from January-May when those kids are in the off-season program. 

I think most slot-t teams have smaller quicker linemen, if I’m not mistaken.  Liberty Hill being the main ones I can come up with off the top of my head. 

[trueblue82]

1 hour ago, Bulldog64 said:

I think most slot-t teams have smaller quicker linemen, if I’m not mistaken.  Liberty Hill being the main ones I can come up with off the top of my head. 

You would be correct. LH is the most successful slot-t team I know of, at least out of teams that run a pure version of it. Pleasant Grove has won two out of the last three state titles in their division, but I haven’t seen enough of them to really know what they do. Paul Pewitt, East Bernard and Franklin all run it very successfully. Personally, I think any system can be successful if taught properly and sound fundamentals are implemented. 

[dillonpanthers]

So many someone needs to go get Kumrow at Paul Pewitt to come install it.  

[yarddog88]

15 hours ago, Bulldog64 said:

laughable, they play assignment football.  I guarantee you 90% of teams key on linemen and not backfield flow.  Otherwise slot-t teams would be playing in jerry world year in and year out.  Eye candy only gets you so far.

All teams did against garrison after the alto game was bull rush. Every play looked like a jailbreak screen. The wildcat plays were off in timing because the back dropped more snaps than he cleanly caught. Eye candy is better than sour grapes.

[Bulldog64]

10 minutes ago, yarddog88 said:

All teams did against garrison after the alto game was bull rush. Every play looked like a jailbreak screen. The wildcat plays were off in timing because the back dropped more snaps than he cleanly caught. Eye candy is better than sour grapes.

I’m going to not be rude this time, that was unkind of me, so I apologize.

I think Alto’s 3-3 stack gave us a lot of issues, but I don’t think it’s fair to say everyone just bull rushed.  On most plays we ran the tackler was usually a lineman or a linebacker at the point of attack, who was assigned to someone.  In fact, one of the few times I remember Alto, or anyone else actually blitzing, we busted off a huge gain because the beauty of the offense Garrison ran is that if you don’t play assignment football, you take yourself out of the play more often than not, because it’s supposed to be quick hitting.  We did get tackled from the backside a few times per game, but most of those were the guard or center missing blocking back in place of a pulling guard or tackle, which is a big no no.  But Alto wasn’t blitzing a lot, and we actually had the numbers advantage most plays we ran.  The offensive design is such that if your blockers get a hat on a hat, you’ll get 4-5 yards a carry with the right back, if they overload the box and brought everyone, the quarterback is throwing an RPO.  It’s a huge numbers advantage offense, and blocking was a lot of our issues last year.  But oh well, the new guy will have tons of studs to work with the next few years.

[KirtFalcon]

Taking a direct snap and dancing around in the backfield for 2 or 3 seconds looking for a non-existent hole or lane to run through while the entire defense is collapsing in on you is really a beautiful system ... In fact, it worked so well that we kept doing it over and over again ... of course you can always try a 35-40 yard low percentage pass on 3rd and 14 to surprise the defense ...

Edited December 27, 2019 by KirtFalcon
yo mama

[Bulldog64]

58 minutes ago, KirtFalcon said:

Taking a direct snap and dancing around in the backfield for 2 or 3 seconds looking for a non-existent hole or lane to run through while the entire defense is collapsing in on you is really a beautiful system ... In fact, it worked so well that we kept doing it over and over again ... of course you can always try a 35-40 yard low percentage pass on 3rd and 14 to surprise the defense ...

just trying to have football discussion, without becoming hostile again, takes the enjoyment out of it for the both of us.
You’re overgeneralizing this, in my opinion. Did we have plays where we got stuffed?  Yes.  But it wasn’t play in and play out like you describe.  Most of the time, except for that Alto game, we had drives that got going going, but they were shot by penalties.  I think against Joaquin we had 4 or 5 drives get shut down by penalties, and against Timpson it seemed to be every other drive.

also, in every single offensive system the defense is gonna get to the ball carrier one way or another, so using that language might make your argument of the defense collapsing around him might sound more convincing, but it’s fluff language at best.  

The 30-40 yard pass you’re describing was thrown maybe 20 times all season.  What do you propose to do you do when the defense sits on short routes and you’re throwing the ball?  just eat it and punt, or at least try and get the ball out there so your receiver can make a play, or force it into a tight window?

Also, you’ve still yet to answer my question.  But when you do, keep in mind your drag route is covered by the defense sitting on short routes, your back over the middle is gonna get tackled as soon as he gets the call against zone coverage we saw all season (Crockett and SA manned up because they can) as well, and the slot-t gets blown up by backfield penetration, so the slot-t doesn’t work, because if you thought teams blitzed us before, sheesh.  Also, your I formation argument might work, honestly. I’ll give you that.  But running a pro-style system (unless you mean power I?, genuinely curious) comes with its own complications in that it’s much more complicated because it’s a lot of formations, so if you thought our offense was vanilla, that one would’ve been much worse.  

All in all, I don’t think anybody is going to argue that this was a good season, I think the coaches, kids, and fans have a right to be disappointed.  But to place all the blame on the coaches, who I’m sure could’ve done things better at some points in every game, that’s just a fact all the way across the board, up to the NFL, is just baselessly pointing fingers.  I get it, you have faith in the athletes at Garrison, as do I, but I’m trying to be objective as well.

Also, what did you think of the split back veer we saw in the last two games?  I think we were going to get a heavy does of that in the years to come if the coaches stuck around.

[MattStepp]

13 hours ago, trueblue82 said:

You would be correct. LH is the most successful slot-t team I know of, at least out of teams that run a pure version of it. Pleasant Grove has won two out of the last three state titles in their division, but I haven’t seen enough of them to really know what they do. Paul Pewitt, East Bernard and Franklin all run it very successfully. Personally, I think any system can be successful if taught properly and sound fundamentals are implemented. 

Pleasant Grove and I believe Franklin are more Wing-T teams while Pewitt and East Bernard are more Slot-T

[yarddog88]

Most of the successful plays were called back because the offensive tackles made great tackles on the defensive ends. Hard to play behind the chains. 

[Bulldog64]

4 minutes ago, yarddog88 said:

Most of the successful plays were called back because the offensive tackles made great tackles on the defensive ends. Hard to play behind the chains. 

pretty good form tackles if you ask me not saying the calls weren’t deserved though.  Most of them were for sure obvious.

[yarddog88]

Timpson game was the worst. A 40 yrd dash for every penalty yard on Monday might make you think twice. But in today's world that's probably not allowed anymore.

[Bulldog64]

1 minute ago, yarddog88 said:

Timpson game was the worst. A 40 yrd dash for every penalty yard on Monday might make you think twice. But in today's world that's probably not allowed anymore.

It was awful.  
I’m not sure if punishment like that is allowed or not, I just know the coaches weren’t happy about it though.

[SloppyJoe]

Coach Cloudy is pretty good with x's and o's and has quite a while before he tops out the teacher's payscale or retired. He was a heck of  a d-back at Center and ETBU. Just sayin

[Ilovefootball2]

On 12/27/2019 at 9:32 PM, SloppyJoe said:

Coach Cloudy is pretty good with x's and o's and has quite a while before he tops out the teacher's payscale or retired. He was a heck of  a d-back at Center and ETBU. Just sayin

And one hell of a basketball coach!! Dawgs are ranked only lost 2 games all season like 16-2 I think.. not sure on the record.. 

[BJH]

I was wrong.  Earlier this year I posted my 1st and what I thought would be my only post on Smoaky .com.  I have read some of the comments about the Garrison situation, and have tried not to say anything, but I guess I don't have enough self control to keep from commenting when someone I know is being criticized.  So here goes.

1.  I have coached with Larry Prince and I know that he made the decision to move into administration.  

2.  Larry Prince is one of the best Football coaches I have ever worked with.  He was a great motivator,  He was very organized, and he was as good with kids as anyone I have been around in coaching. He was a coach who built young men through the game of football.  Every kid that played for us would have run through a brick wall for him and I am sure the kids at Garrison would do the same.  He was my Defensive Coordinator and he was loyal,  hard working, and prepared our kids and I am sure Garrisons kids were prepared very well for every ballgame.  He was my assistant one time, but I would gladly work as one of his assistants any day.  He loves the kids at Garrison and would have done anything in his power to have helped them have the best season they could have.  Sometimes things don't go like we planned,

As far as the criticism that I've seen on here.  I would say that every year before the season starts,  most people think that their town has "great athletes" . Sometimes they do and sometimes they may not be as good as people think.  All I know is that someone who probably never coached a down of football,  or never diagrammed a play and couldn't if you asked him too,  has any business getting on here and being critical of a man who has actually been in the arena and  dealt with all the stuff day in and day out that goes with being an A.D. and head coach.  In fact I would say that people who are openly critical on forums like this about,  the coaches decisions,  like the offense they choose to run or the defense they choose to run, do way more damage to team chemistry than anything else.  Maybe the season wasn't as good as it could have been because your athletes may have been reading some of the stuff on here criticizing someone they need to have total confidence in. I am not trying to offend anyone,  but after 30 plus years of being a coach and about 21 of that being an A.D.,  my advice to any coach who ends up being a Head Football Coach and A.D.  would be to coach the team the way He wanted to, and coach the offense and defense He believed in.  I am sure Coach Prince did his best to choose the offense  and defense he thought would be the best for his kids to be successful,  after all he was with those kids everyday.  I will not hide behind a screen name as this is also something I really have a problem with.  My name is Andy Evans and I am proud to have had the honor to coach with my friend Larry Prince.  I think you would find that most people who played for him or coached with him have the same loyalty to him that I do.