Covid Months 2020 = 400000 'Excess Deaths'

[DannyZuco]

On 1/15/2021 at 6:27 PM, Mavchamp said:

Doctor's cannot legally falsify a cause of death.  They open themselves up for not only litigation from insurance companies, but also from families, hospitals, and even the medical board.  They endanger their medical license and their practice.

Each patient's doctor determines the cause of death.  The hospital pathologist will either agree with the cause, add more causes... or take away causes based on labs/diagnostics/etc and even an autopsy if needed or requested.  Often times.... even a peer review group of doctors can be involved.

Why litigation?  Insurance companies (medical insurance AND life insurance) are always going to question cause of death.  Either for a reason to deny payment.... or to make sure everything is on the up and up.  If there are ANY questions about the listed cause (or causes) of death.... they will push to have it investigated.  They may want to deny payment to the hospital in the case of medical insurance... or payment to a family in the case of life insurance.  Just depends on the individual polices. But trust me... if there are ANY questions about the cause of death.... insurance companies will want to know the truth.

Families can sue sue doctors if they question the cause of listed.  Esp if it is keeping them from collecting on a policy.

Hospitals can sue doctors if they think a false cause of death is shorting their reimbursement from the insurance or medicare/medicaid policies.  So.... the truth will be demanded. 

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NOW.....  is COVID causing all these deaths?  That's where it gets complicated.

Death certificates have MULTIPLE spots for cause of death.  Because.... people can die from many morbidities.  

Let's say John Doe tests positive for COVID.  But he develops pneumonia from the virus.  He becomes critical and ends up on a ventilator.  While on the ventilator, it puts stress on his heart, which causes fluid to back up and he develops congestive heart failure.  All the extra fluid puts stress on his kidneys and he ends up in renal failure.  2 weeks later he dies while in ICU.

What's the cause of death?  COVID?  Pneumonia?  Respiratory failure? Congestive heart failure? Renal failure?

The answer is yes.  All of them.  Likely....  all 5 of those diagnoses will show up on the death certificate.  Which one actually lead to his death?  Nearly impossible to determine because they were all tied together.  The cause and effect of each...lead to the other....  it's called multiple system (organ) failure.

Would that count as a COVID death in their total?  YES. 

Should it?  Depends who you ask.  Some would say COVID started the chain.... even if it technically wasn't what caused him to die.  COVID caused pneumonia which caused resp failure which caused CHF which caused renal failure.  

Would he still be alive had he not had COVID to begin with?  Maybe.  Maybe not... we can't say yes or no with 100% certainty.

But I assure you..... no one is having COVID listed as a cause of death if it wasn't somehow tied to their death.  Too many people are watching the pot boil....too many to let fraud get involved.  Someone is going to squeal..... a doctor, a nurse, a family member, an insurance company, a governmental social worker...list goes on and on.  Too many hands in the cookie jar for fraud to happen.  At least on a grand scale.

As mind-boggling as 400,000 American deaths are to most of us..... most physicians honestly believe the number is actually higher than that.  Early on.... COVID deaths were missed and were listed as pneumonia deaths or another morbidity.  The lack of testing.... especially in rural areas probably saw patients die from COVID that were never tested.... therefore didn't get counted.  So they got counted in other areas (pneumonia, resp failure, chf).  

Truth be told... the COVID death is probably closer to the 500K mark.... but that can't be confirmed with any credibility.

But 400,000 is mind boggling enough.

This is a good statement. I appreciate your view. 

On the other hand, I know where the doctors were putting Covid-19 on a death certificate when the person who died had terminal cancer--lymphoma. His wife caught it on the death certificate and made them change it. He was tested the evening prior to his death, it must have come back positive. They did change it, but she had to get rude with the people. 

This is a case of where I would differ from your statement above. And if they are all placed on a death certificate, then all of those areas should show a rise in mortality. I have NOT looked at all the figures, so if COVID deaths are up, then many other types of death should be up also. Hopefully soon we will find out if it is just the cause to other details as you have said, or how many people are JUST dying of COVID--nothing else on the death certificate. 

If they could break it down like that, I don't believe the media would be able to scare the public as much. But saying that COVID led to pneumonia which led to congestive heart failure which led to death--doesn't make people watch the news, so we can get our 30 second bites. 

But again, I agree with what you have said that it leads to other things, I just hope all those other things are being counted also. 

[Mavchamp]

38 minutes ago, TheShadowKnows said:

Dark days are ahead if we think giving the government more power to control our lives will stop the Covid. 

My post never mentioned government, restrictions, power, quarantine... 

I was simply posting numbers.

There are some out there that still don't believe this real.  Or it's not serious. Or hoax.

But we've been averaging about 20-something deaths a week here in Longview for the last few weeks.

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For the record.....  I want things to reopen.  Those that want to shelter can... those that don't, shouldn't.

 

 

 

[Mavchamp]

7 minutes ago, DannyZuco said:

This is a good statement. I appreciate your view. 

On the other hand, I know where the doctors were putting Covid-19 on a death certificate when the person who died had terminal cancer--lymphoma. His wife caught it on the death certificate and made them change it. He was tested the evening prior to his death, it must have come back positive. They did change it, but she had to get rude with the people. 

This is a case of where I would differ from your statement above. And if they are all placed on a death certificate, then all of those areas should show a rise in mortality. I have NOT looked at all the figures, so if COVID deaths are up, then many other types of death should be up also. Hopefully soon we will find out if it is just the cause to other details as you have said, or how many people are JUST dying of COVID--nothing else on the death certificate. 

If they could break it down like that, I don't believe the media would be able to scare the public as much. But saying that COVID led to pneumonia which led to congestive heart failure which led to death--doesn't make people watch the news, so we can get our 30 second bites. 

But again, I agree with what you have said that it leads to other things, I just hope all those other things are being counted also. 

I'll be honest with you.... you are not likely to see COVID as the LONE cause of death. That's the case in almost ANY infectious disease. 

Most deaths (COVID or not) are usually multi-faceted because all of our body systems are so closely tied to one another. 

Example: Papa Joe died of a heart attack (1)..... but his heart was stressed because he had elevated blood pressure (2) and high cholesterol (3) and COPD (4)....  all of which weakened his heart.  All of his issues will likely be listed on the death certificate.  And all of them will likely count his death in their statistics.

I don't think I've seen COVID only.  It simply doesn't seem to happen that way.  There's nothing nefarious about it.  It's just how it is.... and how it's always been with death statistics.  

COVID cases that become critical.... and especially the ones that end in fatality..... always seem to cause some secondary issues for the patient.  The infections attacks the lungs, or the heart, or the kidneys, or the brain..... 

So yes... it will count as a COVID death....even if it's respiratory failure.  But that failure was caused by COVID.  It's a vicious circle.

[RETIREDFAN1]

2 hours ago, TheShadowKnows said:

Dark days are ahead if we think giving the government more power to control our lives will stop the Covid. 

Exactly.....

[TheShadowKnows]

2 hours ago, ObiOne said:

No kidding.  Talk about sheep.  Why not just send them all of your money.  Or if you own a small business pay a $20 min wage. You know since $15 is so good.  Heck, make it $50.  Anybody that wants to give the government 1 ounce more control is an IDIOT!

send em all your money and they will give you a small percentage back, and if you are a library you will thank them for their kindness. 

[RETIREDFAN1]

2 hours ago, ObiOne said:

No kidding.  Talk about sheep.  Why not just send them all of your money.  Or if you own a small business pay a $20 min wage. You know since $15 is so good.  Heck, make it $50.  Anybody that wants to give the government 1 ounce more control is an IDIOT!

Amen.....

[DaveTV1]

3 hours ago, DannyZuco said:

This is a good statement. I appreciate your view. 

On the other hand, I know where the doctors were putting Covid-19 on a death certificate when the person who died had terminal cancer--lymphoma. His wife caught it on the death certificate and made them change it. He was tested the evening prior to his death, it must have come back positive. They did change it, but she had to get rude with the people. 

This is a case of where I would differ from your statement above. And if they are all placed on a death certificate, then all of those areas should show a rise in mortality. I have NOT looked at all the figures, so if COVID deaths are up, then many other types of death should be up also. Hopefully soon we will find out if it is just the cause to other details as you have said, or how many people are JUST dying of COVID--nothing else on the death certificate. 

If they could break it down like that, I don't believe the media would be able to scare the public as much. But saying that COVID led to pneumonia which led to congestive heart failure which led to death--doesn't make people watch the news, so we can get our 30 second bites. 

But again, I agree with what you have said that it leads to other things, I just hope all those other things are being counted also. 

If you noticed in the original article for this thread it stated that deaths were down in many areas compared to prior years.  This shows that even if you had other conditions and the Wuhan the Wuhan was listed as the primary cause.  Many state health agencies mandated that they be counted as Wuhan deaths, because more stimuless money would be sent to the state and hospitals.  Therefore, it wasn't illegal for a doctor to list it as a Wuhan death.  

[mav01]

 

[mav01]

 

[ObiOne]

5 minutes ago, mav01 said:

 

No matter what!

[mav01]

 

[Mavchamp]

Like I said.... if someone has more than one admitting diagnosis AND is COVID positive... then yes... COVID will be listed... along with all the other(s).

A person in the hospital that dies of a heart attack while they have COVID....  BOTH will be listed on the death certificate.

A death certificate has several blanks on it for causes of death.

And yes... the CDC would count it as a COVID death.... just like the American Heart Association will probably count it as a cardiac death.  It's a not an either/or thing.  The body is made of of MANY SYSTEMS that all work together and are so intricately connected they CANNOT be separated.  

Only an autopsy would determine if COVID actually caused the heart attack.  And there is NO WAY we could be doing pathology on all these thousands of patients.  

But if a patient has COVID... and dies of a respiratory problem, sepsis, multiple organ failure, etc.... it's kind of a no brainer that COVID caused some/most/all it.  And yes.... all of them would be listed on the death certificate.

My sister died of the flu in 2013 at the age of 36.  Her death certificate had influenza, heart failure, renal failure, liver failure, and bone marrow failure listed.  But make no mistakes about it.... the cascade of all those system failures were instigated by the flu.