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1 hour ago, WETSU said:

I don't count just one season. There are plenty of teams with tons of nfl talent thats young and didnt leave. This argument only makes sense if you factor an extended period of time. 

Based off of what was provided above, 

 

The big 12 puts out an average of 2.3 players per team per year into the nfl draft. The sec without bama puts out 3.2 per team per year. Now I'm not sure why we keep talking about bama making the conference top heavy when OU is also nearly twice as much as the closest team but I counted them in just to make you guys feel better lol. 

 

All in all its been touched above but it boils down to this. The SEC is the most athletic conference player for player. Where the average big 12 team has 9 NFL players per average on the roster (4 years worth of players) the average sec team has 13. Does that mean the sec teams are "better" of course not always. Like I've said the Big12 does a great job with lower end talent and getting the most of it. Their coaches might be better Xs and Os guys while the sec relies on out athleting you a lot. These are not knocks on either conference or riding bama coattails or anything. Its just the facts and the numbers show this. 

The SEC is the best unless they are playing in a bowl game that they feel is beneath them. Then they only show up for the swag.  Sorry... I just couldn't help myself.

There's really no doubt that most of the talent headed to the NFL comes from the SEC. I'd like to see where Notre Dame compares.

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30 minutes ago, LOL said:

I'm not sure that point has ever been in debate. In fact, I would argue SEC overall has always (in modern era) had the most athletic talent. Due almost entirely to the culture surrounding the conference historically. 

Let's face it.  Since Nick Saban entered the SEC, along with the SEC commissioner, changed the way people thought about SEC football and consistently backed it up at LSU and Alabama.  If you knock off a Nick Saban team, your road to the National Title becomes clear, making everyone believe you have the best talent in the nation.  If someone in the ACC could grow a pair, finally beat Clemson, then go on to finish top 4 a couple of times, we could see a conference shift from SEC to ACC being on equal ground.  The B12 is too heavily favored and reliable on 2 schools in football.  Texas, OU...  If they aren't at the top, perception right now is that the B12 was down.  Until OU or Texas starts winning or looking like National Champs, these drafting trends won't change.  

Big XII perception is that they recruit top tier talent and watch it wither away.  SEC perception is that their top talent become studs.  Mississippi State looks great for their QB situation over the years... turning 2 and 3 stars into NFL prospects, while Texas Tech won't get that same credit because they aren't winning.  

It's just how it is.  Win games, look good, get more kids drafted.  

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8 minutes ago, Lhornfan said:

The SEC is the best unless they are playing in a bowl game that they feel is beneath them. Then they only show up for the swag.  Sorry... I just couldn't help myself.

There's really no doubt that most of the talent headed to the NFL comes from the SEC. I'd like to see where Notre Dame compares.

As much as I hate to say this, Ohio State is the only other school I would even put in the same class as the top talent producing schools from the SEC.  They can't seem to win when it matters the most, but damn, they put out some NFL studs.

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1 hour ago, MavGrad99 said:

As much as I hate to say this, Ohio State is the only other school I would even put in the same class as the top talent producing schools from the SEC.  They can't seem to win when it matters the most, but damn, they put out some NFL studs.

They have won just as much as any school not coached by Nick Saban in the last 20 years.

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9 hours ago, Valhalla said:

Here are some of my thoughts about it as a big consumer of Big 12 Football.

2. The introduction of TCU into the Big 12 hurt Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, and Baylor (to a certain extent) in recruiting. Now instead of three teams fighting over the second tier talent pool in Texas the Big 12 elevated a 4th team to level of those three. 

 

That shouldn't matter at all, just as it didn't with the SWC.  Teams are going to compete for talent regardless if they are in the same state or what conference they are in.  What has amazed me is how far Nebraska has fallen since leaving for the Big 14 Conference still called the B1G.  They had one good year in 2012.  The same with Arkansas after they joined the SEC.  When Arkansas was with the SWC it seemed they were always in the mix with Ut.  

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13 hours ago, DannyZuco said:

Didn't freaking Kentucky have several draftees this year. I mean come on--they were 4-6 in conference and 5-6 overall. And they probably had as many draftees as the Longhorns.? Maybe? LOL. 

They had 1st rounder and would have been 1st( if he wasn’t a knucklehead) who went in the 2nd. Northwestern had 2 1st rounders. Scouting is a crapshoot.

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14 hours ago, DannyZuco said:

Didn't freaking Kentucky have several draftees this year. I mean come on--they were 4-6 in conference and 5-6 overall. And they probably had as many draftees as the Longhorns.? Maybe? LOL. 

Yes

5 of the 6 were defensive players. The other was an OT, things the Big 12 needs to evolve some in.  Is a 6th round OT gonna have a career though?  Lots of need in the NFL for OT depth which is why so many are drafted.  Kentucky is typically pretty decent on defense but 4 of them were 6/7 rounders.  That’s teams taking chances.  In the past 20 years if you were gonna take a chance on a DT, would you go with one from Kentucky or Baylor?  I get it, I do, but to call the Big12 a mid major over it is dumb.  

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Should we look more at development of players at schools versus big school/small school? How many 3* is Bama taking versus TCU? How many 5* get passed up by a 3*, 2* kid?

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1 hour ago, ETXfan16 said:

I knew Texas had the worst decade in program history, but damn do those numbers just smack you in the face.

Yeah...  we really need y'all to turn a corner this year. 

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4 minutes ago, Stoney said:

Should we look more at development of players at schools versus big school/small school? How many 3* is Bama taking versus TCU? How many 5* get passed up by a 3*, 2* kid?

Less than 1% of high school recruits are 5*

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17 hours ago, MavGrad99 said:

Let's face it.  Since Nick Saban entered the SEC, along with the SEC commissioner, changed the way people thought about SEC football and consistently backed it up at LSU and Alabama.  If you knock off a Nick Saban team, your road to the National Title becomes clear, making everyone believe you have the best talent in the nation.  If someone in the ACC could grow a pair, finally beat Clemson, then go on to finish top 4 a couple of times, we could see a conference shift from SEC to ACC being on equal ground.  

This seems to be the main sticking point for me (and other Big XII-related people), that most of the SEC hype ain't really about the SEC, it's about Saban.

Saban has made the present-day SEC what it is. With his success at 'Bama (and even at LSU) he's been an irresistible magnet of elite talent, such that even the top-tier recruits that Saban rejects end up at lesser SEC programs because of how powerful he's made that brand. His cast-offs can even become Heisman candidates. 

Some programs have done a better job at taking advantage of this, LSU, Georgia, Florida and (to a lesser degree) A&M, but aside from the occasional anomaly "upset," it's Saban world. 

Looking ahead, A&M has done an excellent job of jockeying to be the next major player in the (eventual) post-Saban SEC, and LSU/Georgia/Florida will always draw talent. I think it's going to be a much more interesting college football culture once parity returns to the SEC, and thus: college football. 

17 hours ago, MavGrad99 said:

The B12 is too heavily favored and reliable on 2 schools in football.  Texas, OU...  If they aren't at the top, perception right now is that the B12 was down.  Until OU or Texas starts winning or looking like National Champs, these drafting trends won't change.  

Yeah, we're waaaaaayyyy past the point of diminishing returns in Big XII "dominance." Back-to-back-to-back-to...etc. conference championships aint' cutting it. It's not enough to be Snow White with a buncha dwarfs anymore.

OU is fast approaching a turning point in the program. If this conference doesn't make some VERY strong strides VERY soon, we need to be looking at some serious options. Frankly, we should be doing so already. 

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15 minutes ago, MavGrad99 said:

Less than 1% of high school recruits are 5*

Yeah...  these stats are misleading. I think I'd rather see the percentages of each star group, and if they're drafted. 

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4 hours ago, LOL said:

Yeah, we're waaaaaayyyy past the point of diminishing returns in Big XII "dominance." Back-to-back-to-back-to...etc. conference championships aint' cutting it. It's not enough to be Snow White with a buncha dwarfs anymore.

OU is fast approaching a turning point in the program. If this conference doesn't make some VERY strong strides VERY soon, we need to be looking at some serious options. Frankly, we should be doing so already. 

Which leads us back to the other topic we were talking about--and expanded playoff system, using the bowl games as host sites. Which I believe, like College Basketball, would lead to smaller conferences again, so there would be More automatic bids being given out, not just a bunch of knotheads in a room picking who they think is the best 4 teams. Win your conference--your in, the last 4-6 are based on records. The larger the expansion, the more teams with "at large bids"--plus the more money the NCAA will make. IF the NFL can make millions with a 7-8 team playoff format per year, just imagine the economic impact that a real college football playoff would have. 

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3 hours ago, Stoney said:

They had 1st rounder and would have been 1st( if he wasn’t a knucklehead) who went in the 2nd. Northwestern had 2 1st rounders. Scouting is a crapshoot.

So Northwestern--that purple and white team in Chicago--had more 1st rounders this year than any school in the Big 12? Heck, from what I can see--had not Houston had a 1st round draft choice--Texas colleges would have been shut out of the 1st round. 

I know Texas produces many, many, many football players for colleges across the United States--and each year, we see an exodus of those players headed to other universities outside the state. But I guess winning keeps kids close to home, and with all the streaming services and cable TV, a kids parents can watch him play every game these days, from where ever. 

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I saw Deion Sanders was complaining about HBCU players not being drafted :  https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/05/04/deion-sanders-hbcu-players-were-neglected-and-rejected-in-the-nfl-draft/.  I think what hurt their players the most in this years draft was not being able to play in the fall of 2020.  They are currently playing now, but the games aren't being televised to see, plus if a senior was drafted they would lose their eligibility to play unless a clause was instituted this past year.  Sometimes it's better to be a free agent than a lower round draft pick, because players agents can find teams that have a need for the players position where if they were drafted late they may not have that chance unless they out perform a veteran in training camp.  Some of the greatest NFL players of all time have come from HBCU teams, and I think this year is just aberration of that since they couldn't showcase that.  https://hbcubuzz.com/2019/11/100-best-hbcu-football-players-of-all-time/

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23 hours ago, LOL said:

This seems to be the main sticking point for me (and other Big XII-related people), that most of the SEC hype ain't really about the SEC, it's about Saban.

Saban has made the present-day SEC what it is. With his success at 'Bama (and even at LSU) he's been an irresistible magnet of elite talent, such that even the top-tier recruits that Saban rejects end up at lesser SEC programs because of how powerful he's made that brand. His cast-offs can even become Heisman candidates. 

Some programs have done a better job at taking advantage of this, LSU, Georgia, Florida and (to a lesser degree) A&M, but aside from the occasional anomaly "upset," it's Saban world. 

Looking ahead, A&M has done an excellent job of jockeying to be the next major player in the (eventual) post-Saban SEC, and LSU/Georgia/Florida will always draw talent. I think it's going to be a much more interesting college football culture once parity returns to the SEC, and thus: college football. 

Yeah, we're waaaaaayyyy past the point of diminishing returns in Big XII "dominance." Back-to-back-to-back-to...etc. conference championships aint' cutting it. It's not enough to be Snow White with a buncha dwarfs anymore.

OU is fast approaching a turning point in the program. If this conference doesn't make some VERY strong strides VERY soon, we need to be looking at some serious options. Frankly, we should be doing so already. 

I think its a huge stretch to think the sec turned a corner thanks to saban. I mean there were some really good teams in the 70-90s from multiple programs even before saban and there will be some really good teams when saban is gone. Nick Saban at Bama does not dictate the conference enough to think their dominance will change any time soon. Hell it may even get stronger with more parity. 

 

And honestly there really is more parity in the league than it seams. There have been 5 different teams win the sec in just the last 12 years. Thats pretty diverse even considering Saban and his unbelievable run. 

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19 minutes ago, WETSU said:

And honestly there really is more parity in the league than it seams. There have been 5 different teams win the sec in just the last 12 years. Thats pretty diverse even considering Saban and his unbelievable run. 

Last 12 years.  Alabama (7), Auburn (2), LSU (2), Georgia (1).  
 

13 years ago, Tebow’s Gators won it.  Last time one of those 4 didn’t win it.  Dating back to then, Florida only won it twice, and the top 4 teams listed above won it dating back to 2000.  So really you could say that those 5 teams have won the conference since 2000, and none of the have 7 like Bama.  The closest is LSU with 5, Saban won one of those at LSU.  He’s won 8 sec championships since 2000.  

 

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46 minutes ago, DB2point0 said:

Last 12 years.  Alabama (7), Auburn (2), LSU (2), Georgia (1).  
 

13 years ago, Tebow’s Gators won it.  Last time one of those 4 didn’t win it.  Dating back to then, Florida only won it twice, and the top 4 teams listed above won it dating back to 2000.  So really you could say that those 5 teams have won the conference since 2000, and none of the have 7 like Bama.  The closest is LSU with 5, Saban won one of those at LSU.  He’s won 8 sec championships since 2000.  

 

Sorry I miscounted. Yes 13 years. 

Although I'm not sure what you're arguing here. 5 different conference champs in 13 years is not by any means unusual for any conference in any decade. College football has always had top heavy conferences with the elites dominating majority of the time. This isn't just a saban thing. 

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50 minutes ago, WETSU said:

Sorry I miscounted. Yes 13 years. 

Although I'm not sure what you're arguing here. 5 different conference champs in 13 years is not by any means unusual for any conference in any decade. College football has always had top heavy conferences with the elites dominating majority of the time. This isn't just a saban thing. 

5 for 21 years.  Top heavy conference.  
 

Saban info was impressive

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1 hour ago, DB2point0 said:

5 for 21 years.  Top heavy conference.  
 

Saban info was impressive

In that same span you are pointing out, 

 SEC 5 different champs- Bama with 7 titles (saban with 😎

Acc 5 different champs- clemson with 7 titles

Big 10 6 different champs- Ohio st with 11 titles

Pac 7 different champs- USC with 8 titles 

Big 12 8 different champs- OU with 13 titles

 

 

 

The SEC is not "top heavy" in comparison to the others. They are about on par with the others with the big 12 having a larger gap in number of champions but the big 12 also has been absolutely dominated by OU though with 13 titles in 21 years. It all depends on ones idea of what top heavy means. I call top heavy basically having one team dominate the conference with more than half the titles in the given era. 

 

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7 hours ago, WETSU said:

In that same span you are pointing out, 

 SEC 5 different champs- Bama with 7 titles (saban with 😎

Acc 5 different champs- clemson with 7 titles

Big 10 6 different champs- Ohio st with 11 titles

Pac 7 different champs- USC with 8 titles 

Big 12 8 different champs- OU with 13 titles

 

 

 

The SEC is not "top heavy" in comparison to the others. They are about on par with the others with the big 12 having a larger gap in number of champions but the big 12 also has been absolutely dominated by OU though with 13 titles in 21 years. It all depends on ones idea of what top heavy means. I call top heavy basically having one team dominate the conference with more than half the titles in the given era. 

 

I just said the sec is top heavy.  I don’t care what the pac12 is or isn’t, nor the acc.  We were talking about the sec.  it is and has been a top heavy league.  
 

back to the original point now.  The sec has more draft picks because it is in a region where better football is played in HS.  More top recruits staying home to play college ball.  From Texas to Florida the southeastern quarter of the US is loaded with talent and the sec benefits the most from it. 

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36 minutes ago, DB2point0 said:

The sec has more draft picks because it is in a region where better football is played in HS.  More top recruits staying home to play college ball.  From Texas to Florida the southeastern quarter of the US is loaded with talent and the sec benefits the most from it. 

This is the correct answer. 

Historically, Pennsylvania-Ohio and California have also been deep reservoirs of talent, but they have trended precipitously downward in the last 25 years. Meanwhile the Deep South has maintained, or even grown in some regions. 

As the SEC is rooted in this region, it stands to reason they have easy access to the best of the best talent. The fact that they've consistently poured resources into their programs to maximize this talent is also a major factor. 

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