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BarryLaverty

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1 hour ago, BarryLaverty said:

I appreciate your thoughts and kind tone, so I don't have to be a big jerk, when I respond! 😁 Let me preface my response by first repeating that I do think we do a hellacious job in educating kids. But, I would make some improvements, if possible. 

First, I believe in fully funded PREK and Kindergarten programs. All research shows that the first 5 years of development in a person's life can make or break them in cognitive skills. If we uniformly had kids who could read and write and have other skills before 1st grade, that would set things right for a lot who struggle later. 

Second, I would reduce the amount of testing that is mandated by the state to a bare minimum, and I would look at national tests like the ACT or ACT or ASVAB or the Accuplacer for progress check.  I think accountability by state testing should be scrapped. Too much money and time and pressure on everyone involved doesn't show real growth or skill level, always. 

Third, I would look at a tracking, like the European model, where students advance in their final years, based on their interest and abilities, rather than one size fits all college prep too often. We have career and tech programs, but we could expand and allow them more latitude in what they take in their last two years, instead of another math or science class, they complete a practicum or internship in a field of interest. 

Fourth, and the one you may like least, I would look much harder at our funding mechanism for our schools, so that there is much better equity in salaries and facilities and technology. As it is now, if you live in the DFW area, you get a much better opportunity with many more programs with teachers flocking there for higher salaries in much nicer classroom settings with full technology than you do if you live in BFE. Where you live shouldn't be the deciding factor in a quality education, in my opinion. 

 

Just some of my thoughts. Fire away! 😏

 

Can I chime in?

First, get all the "woke" nonsense out of the classroom. Less time teaching "woke" nonsense (or courses that have been changed to include "wokeness") equals more time for actual learning of subject matter and practical application thereof. I'd rather have kids who know how to calculate the area under a curve, or write a proper sentence, than learning "woke" math.

And I have a legit question, Barry.

What's with the way schools are funded? I know you have no control over that, but it seems to me like a really dumb way to do things. This might be statewide, but where I live, it's no longer how many days or hours the kids attend school. It's how many minutes, which any of those seem kind of dumb. I understand getting some sort of snapshot to determine how many kids are in a district. But funding schools on a per student per minute basis just seems weird.

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1 hour ago, BarryLaverty said:

I appreciate your thoughts and kind tone, so I don't have to be a big jerk, when I respond! 😁 Let me preface my response by first repeating that I do think we do a hellacious job in educating kids. But, I would make some improvements, if possible. 

First, I believe in fully funded PREK and Kindergarten programs. All research shows that the first 5 years of development in a person's life can make or break them in cognitive skills. If we uniformly had kids who could read and write and have other skills before 1st grade, that would set things right for a lot who struggle later. 

Second, I would reduce the amount of testing that is mandated by the state to a bare minimum, and I would look at national tests like the ACT or ACT or ASVAB or the Accuplacer for progress check.  I think accountability by state testing should be scrapped. Too much money and time and pressure on everyone involved doesn't show real growth or skill level, always. 

Third, I would look at a tracking, like the European model, where students advance in their final years, based on their interest and abilities, rather than one size fits all college prep too often. We have career and tech programs, but we could expand and allow them more latitude in what they take in their last two years, instead of another math or science class, they complete a practicum or internship in a field of interest. 

Fourth, and the one you may like least, I would look much harder at our funding mechanism for our schools, so that there is much better equity in salaries and facilities and technology. As it is now, if you live in the DFW area, you get a much better opportunity with many more programs with teachers flocking there for higher salaries in much nicer classroom settings with full technology than you do if you live in BFE. Where you live shouldn't be the deciding factor in a quality education, in my opinion. 

 

Just some of my thoughts. Fire away! 😏

 

As i suspected we agree on more than we disagree. 
I agree that most teachers are awesome and are definitely not the problem, but actually compensate for education system shortcomings and camouflage some of our systems deficiencies with their efforts. 
 
Agreed on the little ones reading. 
pre-3 should be as reading heavy as possible. All of their learning to come builds off of that. 

Less state testing- i find it crazy that we allow idiots in Austin to set success standards rather than their teachers/principal/ and superintendent where it belongs. 

 

Agree also on the late school being more career/major driven classes. The one size college fits all model does our kids a terrible disservice. 
 

On the finances- 

I also wish salaries and such were closer to a level playing field. I can see how teachers can live cheaper in BFE than in frisco/Allen/Plano etc… but we could be closer than we currently are. 

This is where i will probably lose you but here goes. 
I wish all funding was on a per student per semester or full year basis. In other words little Billy is enrolled in school X, then school X receives his allotment of funding in either 2 equal parts (semester) or one full sum(yearly). Local ISD taxes can be used as is far as I can see.(each school gets the kids allotment of local tax $)
(here comes the boom) I would also be a fan of vouchers for any students. The tax burden doesn’t change for anyone. 
What i see as the major benefit is that little Billy lives in a terrible district so he’s stuck. Just as you said with the high school students the more choices the better. I feel the same about all ages to an extent. If the private/ charter/or direct public is the best choice for that student then i support their ability to make that choice. Once again i am pro teacher, pro student, and pro public schools, but only for those who choose , not a fan of the one school fits all. (Be gentle Barry and Danny)😂

lastly i would add that the subjects we teach are in my mind severely outdated. For instance i think less Algebra and more financial math for most students. The exception being the ones who want to enter math heavy fields. Engineers, education, etc.  i can’t do as good a job explaining as a book i read recently; “Freedom to learn” by Will Richardson. Really has good food for thought in there. 
 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Monte1076 said:

Can I chime in?

First, get all the "woke" nonsense out of the classroom. Less time teaching "woke" nonsense (or courses that have been changed to include "wokeness") equals more time for actual learning of subject matter and practical application thereof. I'd rather have kids who know how to calculate the area under a curve, or write a proper sentence, than learning "woke" math.

And I have a legit question, Barry.

What's with the way schools are funded? I know you have no control over that, but it seems to me like a really dumb way to do things. This might be statewide, but where I live, it's no longer how many days or hours the kids attend school. It's how many minutes, which any of those seem kind of dumb. I understand getting some sort of snapshot to determine how many kids are in a district. But funding schools on a per student per minute basis just seems weird.

I agree on the funding. I think the less time the kids are in school the more expensive their education is to taxpayers. It takes more hours and labor and resources and therefore money for those with lower attendance rates. And most of the time those students are the ones who need the most support. I wish they would find it per student and either per semester or year. 

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Some good thoughts and appreciate the insight! 
 

Funding shifted to minutes to give schools flexibility to extend their school day and go less days, if wanted. And funding is based on attendance for a 'snapshot' in the course of a day, for many, 2nd period. We ask for students to plan appointments before then or after. And, no, I don't completely understand it, at all! 🤣

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17 hours ago, trashyhound said:

I wish all funding was on a per student per semester or full year basis. In other words little Billy is enrolled in school X, then school X receives his allotment of funding in either 2 equal parts (semester) or one full sum(yearly). Local ISD taxes can be used as is far as I can see.(each school gets the kids allotment of local tax $)
(here comes the boom) I would also be a fan of vouchers for any students. The tax burden doesn’t change for anyone. 

I will NEVER agree with Local Taxes be allowed to leave a local district, but that is only one portion of school dollars. And as I have said in the past--the state can give vouchers using their state money all they want, but it is not really going to change school choice. Based on the article below--each student could get a voucher for $5140. But that is NOT going to pay for transportation & everything else the students need. Plus, vouchers are NOT going to solve the problems--just over crowd schools more--cause recruiting in athletics (more than it occurs already)--cause districts to close schools based on number of students & parents will start raising all kinds of problems, because they are paying for other students to be in their district--which will cause districts to place "transfer fees" on out of district students. 

Local tax dollars pay for more than just "teacher salaries"--it also includes buildings, maintenance, buses......

Also, from the little I know from state attendance policies--school districts get money from the state based on ADA--Average Daily Attendance--and a bunch of other wonderful formulas that would give Einstein a headache. And unless the state has raised the "per student" rate in the past 2 years (which I doubt)--then this is what Texas contributes per student. 

https://www.texastribune.org/2019/02/15/texas-school-funding-how-it-works/

Texas guarantees every school district a certain amount of funding for each student. State lawmakers determine the base number per student, which is currently $5,140. Many educators argue that the state should regularly increase that base number, at least with inflation, to get all schools the money they need. But the amount has not changed in four years.

 

The tax burden doesn’t change for anyone.  According to the Article above--poorer districts are actually getting more money from their tax payers--meaning if local property taxes were given as vouchers--then they would actually lose more money than their richer district partners--where all those "vouchers" would be heading. 

Poor districts pay $1.17 per $100

Richer Districts pay $1.04 per $100

What is bad--that county appraisers have raised home "values" so much over the past 5 years that is what is killing a person's tax rate. I can tell you from personal experience--in 5 years, my home has gone from $213K--which I thought was over priced to $402K according to my county officials. And I have a small house with just 5 acres--50 some odd miles from Dallas. Just imagine what those in Dallas are valued at. 

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14 hours ago, BarryLaverty said:

Some good thoughts and appreciate the insight! 
 

Funding shifted to minutes to give schools flexibility to extend their school day and go less days, if wanted. And funding is based on attendance for a 'snapshot' in the course of a day, for many, 2nd period. We ask for students to plan appointments before then or after. And, no, I don't completely understand it, at all! 🤣

Yes, several of the districts in my area have gone to 4 days a week--longer days--but supposedly saving money on other bills. But the schools are still open all day long. But students are not having to make up as much work because of extra curricular activities. 

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On 7/28/2021 at 6:45 PM, BarryLaverty said:

Some good thoughts and appreciate the insight! 
 

Funding shifted to minutes to give schools flexibility to extend their school day and go less days, if wanted. And funding is based on attendance for a 'snapshot' in the course of a day, for many, 2nd period. We ask for students to plan appointments before then or after. And, no, I don't completely understand it, at all! 🤣

I know you can't really do anything about it, but doesn't that even seem kind of dumb to you? I get the "flexibility" thing, but to my understanding, school districts are paid based on how many minutes the students attend. So if you have a student that misses 45 minutes, the school district doesn't get paid for that 45 minutes. I could be wrong there, but that's my understanding of how it works.

The only real reason my wife keeps track of our local school district calendar is that she plans her "days off" (like school holidays) around the local district's calendar.

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3 hours ago, Monte1076 said:

I know you can't really do anything about it, but doesn't that even seem kind of dumb to you? I get the "flexibility" thing, but to my understanding, school districts are paid based on how many minutes the students attend. So if you have a student that misses 45 minutes, the school district doesn't get paid for that 45 minutes. I could be wrong there, but that's my understanding of how it works.

The only real reason my wife keeps track of our local school district calendar is that she plans her "days off" (like school holidays) around the local district's calendar.

You would think that, but with the formulas the state uses, know one knows for sure. I do know that, like Barry's school, our attendance for the day is taken 2nd period or at 9:30 am. They actually make an announcement at my school to tell the teachers to take attendance now. This attendance is what they use for the schools ADA-Average Daily Attendance--which pays the school districts. 

And while the students have to have so many minutes in a classroom setting, those are hard to prove, with those going to restrooms, being sent to library....so it becomes a "they were suppose to be in class that many minutes." Some students who actually miss to many days--they do have to make up time, but not what is required, at least at my school. I am not sure about others. Barry? 

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38 minutes ago, DannyZuco said:

You would think that, but with the formulas the state uses, know one knows for sure. I do know that, like Barry's school, our attendance for the day is taken 2nd period or at 9:30 am. They actually make an announcement at my school to tell the teachers to take attendance now. This attendance is what they use for the schools ADA-Average Daily Attendance--which pays the school districts. 

And while the students have to have so many minutes in a classroom setting, those are hard to prove, with those going to restrooms, being sent to library....so it becomes a "they were suppose to be in class that many minutes." Some students who actually miss to many days--they do have to make up time, but not what is required, at least at my school. I am not sure about others. Barry? 

Yep, 'attendance recovery' has to be done after school or on Saturday, with a supposed academic emphasis, although I have seen them made into desk movers or custodian helpers. Not making up the extra time missed, (generally 10 days a semester is too much), leads to credit loss and/or truancy proceedings. I have also seen where going to the doctor or dentist can be excused, but a parent note is worthless, even if they are home deathly ill. It can be a messy thing. 

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7 hours ago, DannyZuco said:

You would think that, but with the formulas the state uses, know one knows for sure. I do know that, like Barry's school, our attendance for the day is taken 2nd period or at 9:30 am. They actually make an announcement at my school to tell the teachers to take attendance now. This attendance is what they use for the schools ADA-Average Daily Attendance--which pays the school districts. 

And while the students have to have so many minutes in a classroom setting, those are hard to prove, with those going to restrooms, being sent to library....so it becomes a "they were suppose to be in class that many minutes." Some students who actually miss to many days--they do have to make up time, but not what is required, at least at my school. I am not sure about others. Barry? 

How is being sent to the library not considered class time ?  I know I was able to go to the library to find additional resources for English, Journalism, and Science.  That's why I think it should be considered in class, because you are doing additional research for the classes you are in.  I can still remember one friend that was constantly roaming the halls on his bathroom break, he would go around whistling the theme to the Lowenbrau commercial.  He's actually been successful in his life.  I don't know how the teachers let him get away with it, except it was funny and everyone knew there's Ken again.  

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7 hours ago, BarryLaverty said:

I have also seen where going to the doctor or dentist can be excused, but a parent note is worthless, even if they are home deathly ill. It can be a messy thing. 

That's crazy to me, and hurts the poor.  What if the child's parents don't have health insurance ?  Then they can be fined and even jailed in some cases for truancy.  I know that wasn't how it was done before 1987.  I never skipped school, except Senior Skip day, but I missed days of school for being ill, and a doctors or dentist/orthodontist note wasn't required.  If we had an appointment during class we did have to provide our appointment slips unless our parents came to get us.  My orthodontist was across the street from my Jr. High so I had to have the note.   

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4 hours ago, DaveTV1 said:

That's crazy to me, and hurts the poor.  What if the child's parents don't have health insurance ?  Then they can be fined and even jailed in some cases for truancy.  I know that wasn't how it was done before 1987.  I never skipped school, except Senior Skip day, but I missed days of school for being ill, and a doctors or dentist/orthodontist note wasn't required.  If we had an appointment during class we did have to provide our appointment slips unless our parents came to get us.  My orthodontist was across the street from my Jr. High so I had to have the note.   

I don't like it either, and I agree with you completely.

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16 hours ago, DaveTV1 said:

How is being sent to the library not considered class time ?  I know I was able to go to the library to find additional resources for English, Journalism, and Science.  That's why I think it should be considered in class, because you are doing additional research for the classes you are in.  I can still remember one friend that was constantly roaming the halls on his bathroom break, he would go around whistling the theme to the Lowenbrau commercial.  He's actually been successful in his life.  I don't know how the teachers let him get away with it, except it was funny and everyone knew there's Ken again.  

Because they are NOT sent there to do work, plus in a lot of districts, they don't have true librarians anymore so the person working in there is just an aide, which most kids don't listen to. And if they are sent to the library at my school, it is because they are disrupting the class--and if they were sent to the office, they were sent right back-without punishment or discipline--only to start disrupting again. 

And we can talk all we want about classroom management and whatever else, there are just some kids that have to be in school because of parents or judges or whatever, they don't want to learn, they just want to be that kid that everyone talks to or notices 24/7.  And I don't care how fun, how interesting, or whatever you make each lesson, they just hate being there but have to be there. So they disrupt.

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10 hours ago, DannyZuco said:

Because they are NOT sent there to do work, plus in a lot of districts, they don't have true librarians anymore so the person working in there is just an aide, which most kids don't listen to. And if they are sent to the library at my school, it is because they are disrupting the class--and if they were sent to the office, they were sent right back-without punishment or discipline--only to start disrupting again. 

And we can talk all we want about classroom management and whatever else, there are just some kids that have to be in school because of parents or judges or whatever, they don't want to learn, they just want to be that kid that everyone talks to or notices 24/7.  And I don't care how fun, how interesting, or whatever you make each lesson, they just hate being there but have to be there. So they disrupt.

Then things have changed, because when we were sent to the library during class it was to do research.  We had a librarian and an aide.  If we disrupted class it was off to the Principals office or the teacher doled out punishment with a paddle.  

Sounds like a bunch of Sweathogs until they had the right teacher.  

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