Is it possible to be a Christian and a Liberal??

[1stSuperScot]

Originally posted by Five0pd310

Is it possible to be a Christian and a politician?

 

Yes....but why would you want to be? :shrug:

 

Or perhaps a better question: Why would a follower of Christ support abortion, or environmental destruction (poor stewardship), or burdensome taxes, or stinginess, or intrusive government, or disregard for suffering, or immorality, or racial discrimination?

 

In my opinion, if you ditch the labels and focus on the issues, you find that both sides fall short of the Glory of God. :blink:

[woodgie07]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

Or perhaps a better question: Why would a follower of Christ support abortion, or environmental destruction (poor stewardship), or burdensome taxes, or stinginess, or intrusive government, or disregard for suffering, or immorality, or racial discrimination?

I believe the answer to your question is separation of church and state.

 

It takes more than one person to change the country. Sure, it'd be nice to have a country where no one destroyed the environment, there were no taxes, everyone was generous, and everyone could be cared for. However, we do not live in a utopian society. It simply is not possible for these things to be implemented, so why bother to try? Politicians typically strive for reasonable goals, regardless of religion.

[1stSuperScot]

Originally posted by woodgie07

 

I believe the answer to your question is separation of church and state.

 

It takes more than one person to change the country. Sure, it'd be nice to have a country where no one destroyed the environment, there were no taxes, everyone was generous, and everyone could be cared for. However, we do not live in a utopian society. It simply is not possible for these things to be implemented, so why bother to try? Politicians typically strive for reasonable goals, regardless of religion.

 

Government is a necessary institution because we don't, nor never will live, in a "utopian" society, as you rightly assess. (At least, not until Jesus comes again.)

 

My question to you is: Without God (some people substitute "religion"), how should "politicians" or you or anyone decide which issues to address and how to address them and in what priority?

[woodgie07]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

My question to you is: Without God (some people substitute "religion"), how should "politicians" or you or anyone decide which issues to address and how to address them and in what priority?

I don't see what god or religion have to do with this. You address issues as they become problems, just as how things have been done the past 230 years in America.

[1stSuperScot]

A) Without God, there are no "problems". Things just are! There is no right and no wrong. There is no moral standard by which to determine what "should" be.

 

B) God has everything to do with it. Without God, you and I are simply a random collection of matter and energy evolved to a somewhat complex order. You have no "rights". Life has no meaning. Without God, it's all just a cosmic crapshoot.

 

C) A good student of the past 230 years in America (or 430 years for that matter) could not help but notice the impact of Judeo-Christian tradition and values on our history.

[woodgie07]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

A) Without God, there are no "problems".

I completely agree. When people start talking about god and religion, conflict occurs.

B) God has everything to do with it. Without God, you and I are simply a random collection of matter and energy evolved to a somewhat complex order. You have no "rights". Life has no meaning. Without God, it's all just a cosmic crapshoot.

Simply your opinion. I personally do not believe in god. Because I do not believe in god and you do, does that make me a random collection of matter and energy and you a person?

C) A good student of the past 230 years in America (or 430 years for that matter) could not help but notice the impact of Judeo-Christian tradition and values on our history.

Such as?

[Straw]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

A) Without God, there are no "problems". Things just are! There is no right and no wrong. There is no moral standard by which to determine what "should" be.

 

B) God has everything to do with it. Without God, you and I are simply a random collection of matter and energy evolved to a somewhat complex order. You have no "rights". Life has no meaning. Without God, it's all just a cosmic crapshoot.

 

C) A good student of the past 230 years in America (or 430 years for that matter) could not help but notice the impact of Judeo-Christian tradition and values on our history.

 

B is incorrect. We are born with a certain morality just as we are born to understand the need to eat. Most animals love their mothers. Are they in touch with God?

If there was solid proof that there was no God, would you become immoral and start killing and raping? I think not!

[DaveTV1]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

A) Without God, there are no "problems". Things just are! There is no right and no wrong. There is no moral standard by which to determine what "should" be.

 

B) God has everything to do with it. Without God, you and I are simply a random collection of matter and energy evolved to a somewhat complex order. You have no "rights". Life has no meaning. Without God, it's all just a cosmic crapshoot.

 

C) A good student of the past 230 years in America (or 430 years for that matter) could not help but notice the impact of Judeo-Christian tradition and values on our history.

 

 

Even people that are not raised in a religious home have the "Light Of Christ", some call it "Ethics". Regardless of how you feel about the religions of the world, all teach of compassion, giving to those in need, treating each other with respect and love. It's man that corrupts the teachings of God.

 

Islam means "To make Peace", and Christianity is founded on the Prince of Peace. The smoking of the "Peace Pipe" is sacred to those that are of Native American descent.

 

What it boils down to is others taking advantage of others.

 

Communisim took advantage of others for the purpose of the Politburo. It was the leaders taking advantage of the disadvantaged.

 

As a social degenerate once said "The only thing certain in life is death and taxes". I like the man that made that quote, but have no desire to live as he did. He was a great inventor, satirist, statesman, scientist, musician, et al. I do admire alot of his philanthropy, however. The reason I call Benjamin Franklin a degenerate is his procurement of "ladies of the evening" for the dalliances of flesh.

 

I don't care if you believe in God, and I don't care if you don't. I have trust in some people, I have a knowledge of God, and I believe in Me. It's up to me to discern which path, I should go.

 

As with A - KISS isn't an answer, Keeping It Simple.... is ignoring our fellow man, and not making anything better.

 

B - God has everything to do with it - I can see satan/lucifers hand in the mix. I won't give him any kudo's. I understand that he has alot of power, however I don't know why, except we are to be molded and trials and tribulations make us better.

 

C- A good student of all the history of earth - Will understand that giving a helping hand will do far more good than evil.

 

I accept what Einstein has said, and I understand that energy never ceases. Sir Thomas More and Erasmus were somewhat stalwarts, of the "perfect society", however I know that we find it in ourselves to purvey goodness and tranquility. It should be shown in all our daily endeavors.

 

It takes more than a village to raise a child, it also takes compassion and love to understand why we must forgive and correct one another. Sometimes, it takes a strong hand and sometimes it takes a stern word.

 

Prudence, Forgiveness, and Repentance are the key.

[1stSuperScot]

Originally posted by woodgie07

Simply your opinion. I personally do not believe in god. Because I do not believe in god and you do, does that make me a random collection of matter and energy and you a person?

 

My belief or your belief has nothing to do with reality. In reality, if God exists, you and I are both "persons". If God doesn't exist then we are both cosmic accidents - random collections of matter and energy.

 

You don't know me. We've never met. You have no proof that I exist. You have only evidence that I exist. Before this weekend, you didn't even believe that I existed. Nonetheless, I exist - regardless of your belief.

[Straw]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

Originally posted by woodgie07

Simply your opinion. I personally do not believe in god. Because I do not believe in god and you do, does that make me a random collection of matter and energy and you a person?

 

My belief or your belief has nothing to do with reality. In reality, if God exists, you and I are both "persons". If God doesn't exist then we are both cosmic accidents - random collections of matter and energy.

 

You don't know me. We've never met. You have no proof that I exist. You have only evidence that I exist. Before this weekend, you didn't even believe that I existed. Nonetheless, I exist - regardless of your belief.

 

Then that holds true with Bigfoot, The Loch Ness Monster and Aliens. Ive never seen them but they must exist according to your theory of life.

[1stSuperScot]

Originally posted by strawberry66

B is incorrect. We are born with a certain morality just as we are born to understand the need to eat. Most animals love their mothers. Are they in touch with God?

If there was solid proof that there was no God, would you become immoral and start killing and raping? I think not!

 

If there is no God, I could justify raping as a "need" to procreate. I could justify killing as a "need" to survive. But really, if there is no God, why do I "need" to justify anything to anyone?

 

This "certain morality" that you say we are born with, where does that come from? It comes from God. It comes from being created in the image of God. It is an innate moral compass that points to something - a moral standard - that exists distinctly from ourselves. It is because this moral standard exists that I need to "justify" my actions. The existence of a transcendant moral standard is one evidence that God exists.

[Straw]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

If there is no God, I could justify raping as a "need" to procreate. I could justify killing as a "need" to survive. But really, if there is no God, why do I "need" to justify anything to anyone?

 

This "certain morality" that you say we are born with, where does that come from? It comes from God. It comes from being created in the image of God. It is an innate moral compass that points to something - a moral standard - that exists distinctly from ourselves. It is because this moral standard exists that I need to "justify" my actions. The existence of a transcendant moral standard is one evidence that God exists.

 

Christians often "justify" immoral acts by their interpretation of the Word of God. Sure you can reason that raping a woman to procreate would be a grand idea, but would you do it? I also do not like my neighbor, me being an atheist, why havent I murdered him yet? There are groups of humans all thru history that did not kill each other that never heard the word of God. Why is that?

See this is the fundamental problem with Christians like you. By you believing in something I dont, you are a better person than me and people like me. If I remember most atrocities committed in history are by so called moral Christians.

[1stSuperScot]

Originally posted by DaveTV1I have trust in some people, I have a knowledge of God, and I believe in Me. It's up to me to discern which path, I should go.

 

This is DaveTV1's statement of faith. It is succint. It is one shared by many. I can appreciate this kind of honesty.

 

I suppose we could all subscribe to Dave or we could:

 

"Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart. Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones"

[Guest bleedsbluengold24]

9/11, Hitler's death camps, the slaughter of millions by Stalin, Pol Pot. While there are instances of atrocities by Christians (the Inquisition, Jim Jones in Guyana, etc), these acts were not sanctioned by God, but by evil people laying their acts off on God.

 

To say that most atrocities were perpetrated by Christians may be an overstatement. Christians are still persecuted daily, even in the 21st century for nothing more than being Christians.

 

I didn't see anywhere that anyone said they were better than you because they were Christians and you were an athiest.

[Straw]

Simply put, his statements assume that all non Christians do immoral things. Certainly you are intelligent enough to read that in his post. There really isnt any part of society that isnt persecuted for something. Christians did their share of persecuting.

[1stSuperScot]

"Simply put, his statements assume that all non Christians do immoral things." - Would you please cut and paste a quote that I made that supports your assertion?

 

"By you believing in something I dont, you are a better person than me and people like me."...These were not my words. Again, I ask that you show me where I said anything like this.

 

"I also do not like my neighbor, me being an atheist, why havent I murdered him yet?"....How would you answer this question?

 

This "certain morality" that you say we are born with, in your opinion, where does that come from?

[Straw]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

"Simply put, his statements assume that all non Christians do immoral things." - Would you please cut and paste a quote that I made that supports your assertion?

 

"By you believing in something I dont, you are a better person than me and people like me."...These were not my words. Again, I ask that you show me where I said anything like this.

 

"I also do not like my neighbor, me being an atheist, why havent I murdered him yet?"....How would you answer this question?

 

I dont need to cut and paste. The underlying meaning in your post says it all. I do not believe in God therefore I cannot be a moral person. Certainly the basis of Christianity states that a non believer is cast off to Hades. Do you believe this? Do you believe that being a Christian makes you a better person than a non Christian? Why? I do not kill my neighbor because of what I was born with and with what my parents taught me.....common sense! Can you believe that an Atheist can be a good moral person? How is this?

[1stSuperScot]

"The underlying meaning in your post says it all. I do not believe in God therefore I cannot be a moral person.".......No, you are completely wrong. Perhaps because you are looking for "underlyng meanings" - which aren't really there.

 

"Can you believe that an Atheist can be a good, moral person?" Yes! But how do I know, how do you know if a person is "good, moral"?

 

"I do not kill my neighbor because of what I was born with and with what my parents taught me.....common sense!".....Again. What is the source of this common sense? Where did your parents acquire it? What if your "common sense" conflicts with your neighbor's?

[Straw]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

"The underlying meaning in your post says it all. I do not believe in God therefore I cannot be a moral person.".......No, you are completely wrong. Perhaps because you are looking for "underlyng meanings" - which aren't really there.

 

"Can you believe that an Atheist can be a good, moral person?" Yes! But how do I know, how do you know if a person is "good, moral"?

 

"I do not kill my neighbor because of what I was born with and with what my parents taught me.....common sense!".....Again. What is the source of this common sense? Where did your parents acquire it? What if your "common sense" conflicts with your neighbor's?

 

How do all animals know to seek food when they are born?

[Straw]

Obviously we will not agree!:thumbsup:

[Guest bleedsbluengold24]

Animal instinct and human morals are two vastly different concepts.

[Straw]

Originally posted by bleedsbluengold24

Animal instinct and human morals are two vastly different concepts.

 

However they are also the same. I believe you are born with certain impulses that lead you in the right direction. I dont believe they come from God but have evolved through time. Even the most hanious murderers did not kill their parents when they were young. It wasnt in the brain to do that. Morals are an instinct, however different our morals are from one another the are comparible. Christianity is not the moral compass that you make it out to be.

[Guest bleedsbluengold24]

Originally posted by strawberry66

Simply put, his statements assume that all non Christians do immoral things. Certainly you are intelligent enough to read that in his post. There really isnt any part of society that isnt persecuted for something. Christians did their share of persecuting.

 

You are somewhat correct. There was/is a lot of persecution in the name of Christianity, however, it would be easy to question whether those doing the persecution are true Christians. And I still assert that Christians are persecuted (I didn't say discriminated against) more today than any other group. There are still Christians being incarcerated and killed today simply for being Christians.

 

I think your assumption about the statement is a little too far-reaching. I don't think that was what SuperScot was saying at all, although I will stop short of explaining same and will allow him to do so.

 

But I believe you are right in your later comment, we will probably not ever agree until one of us changes our belief system. And that is not likely to happen.

[1stSuperScot]

"How do all animals know to seek food when they are born?" - Not sure that they do.

 

Who says it "common sense" not to kill your neighbor? What if he has something I want? What if he makes me unhappy? What if I am afraid of him?

 

"I believe you are born with certain impulses that lead you in the right direction." - What is the "right" direction?

[Straw]

Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

"How do all animals know to seek food when they are born?" - Not sure that they do.

 

Who says it "common sense" not to kill your neighbor? What if he has something I want? What if he makes me unhappy? What if I am afraid of him?

 

"I believe you are born with certain impulses that lead you in the right direction." - What is the "right" direction?

 

The right direction is the direction "I" choose. Not the one you think is correct for me. That is what i was implying.