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Is it possible to be a Christian and a Liberal??


crossfire1407

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"The right direction is the direction "I" choose. Not the one you think is correct for me. That is what i was implying. "

 

Good answer! I'm OK with that! As an atheist, you are, I assume, consistently arguing that there are no absolutes.

 

To be consistent, though, you must admit there is nothing "wrong" with rape, child molesting, racism or killing your neighbor. You choose what's right for you and I choose what's right for me. What Mohamed Atta did on 9-11 was right for him.

 

You are OK with that?

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Originally posted by woodgie07

If you guys would excuse me, I, an atheist who has no morals, have a building to burn down, a woman to rape, a baby to murder, and a bank to rob. See you soon!

 

If there is no God, there are no moral absolutes. Everything is subjective. Knock yourself out!

 

Why do you quote Ghandi?

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Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

Why do you quote Ghandi?

I believe the quote you are referring to was said by Gandhi, not Ghandi. Ghandi is kind of an offensive term in Gujurati. Watch your mouth.

 

And to answer your question, I like the quote. Why do you ask? Because Gandhi was a firm believer in Krishna and you are somehow going to twist that into your silly argument about god being the foundation of life?

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Guest bleedsbluengold24
Originally posted by woodgie07
Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

Why do you quote Ghandi?

I believe the quote you are referring to was said by Gandhi, not Ghandi. Ghandi is kind of an offensive term in Gujurati. Watch your mouth.

 

And to answer your question, I like the quote. Why do you ask? Because Gandhi was a firm believer in Krishna and you are somehow going to twist that into your silly argument about god being the foundation of life?

 

Woodgie, why so defensive? SuperScot, just as he did not attack strawberry for his athiesm, did not attack you for yours. But you call his belief that God is the foundation of life silly.

 

And if we are making corrections, that's God, not god.

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Originally posted by bleedsbluengold24

 

Woodgie, why so defensive? SuperScot, just as he did not attack strawberry for his athiesm, did not attack you for yours. But you call his belief that God is the foundation of life silly.

 

And if we are making corrections, that's God, not god.

 

Oh I dont think he attacked me. I firmly believe that the majority of Christians think they are more "moral" than others, yet history has proved that to be untrue. You cant help that that is what you are taught from birth. I think its called brainwashing.:whome:

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Originally posted by 1stSuperScot
Originally posted by DaveTV1I have trust in some people, I have a knowledge of God, and I believe in Me. It's up to me to discern which path, I should go.

 

This is DaveTV1's statement of faith. It is succint. It is one shared by many. I can appreciate this kind of honesty.

 

I suppose we could all subscribe to Dave or we could:

 

"Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart. Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones"

 

I can't live on blind faith. I have to be as Saul/Paul and "Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good." I see to many people as Strawberry66 does, that go on only what they are told. I don't buy into being a sheep. In essence I am a sheep, and I know my Shepherd. I refuse to condemn any man for not believing in Jesus Christ. However, I can condemn certain acts. I do believe in "righteous indignation". I can see that Strawberry see's injustices in the world, and like all of us, desires a change.

 

Changes happen gradually, they don't happen overnight. I'm not going to be a zealout, and condemn every thought that I see. I think that we are all creations of God, regardless of how one desires to perceive it. I can see the good in people, just as I do in their intentions. But, then again I've never went "Gung Ho" on many things, until I learned and understood them.

 

I don't have a problem with my family going to war in the Middle East. We didn't strike first, and yes I know that Christ said to "Turn the other cheek". Yes, I know of Christ healing Malchus after his ear was severed. I can't sit by and watch an injustice happen. To me that's wrong. I couldn't act as Peter did, I would be as Patrick Henry. Death isn't that bad of a place if you know where it is.

 

late

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Guest bleedsbluengold24
Originally posted by strawberry66
Originally posted by bleedsbluengold24

 

Woodgie, why so defensive? SuperScot, just as he did not attack strawberry for his athiesm, did not attack you for yours. But you call his belief that God is the foundation of life silly.

 

And if we are making corrections, that's God, not god.

 

Oh I dont think he attacked me. I firmly believe that the majority of Christians think they are more "moral" than others, yet history has proved that to be untrue. You cant help that that is what you are taught from birth. I think its called brainwashing.:whome:

 

And as a devout athiest, how would you know that? Or are you just assuming such because you don't care for Christians?

 

See, one of the differences between you and me, other than the fact that you are an athiest and I am a Christian, is that as a Christian, I acknowledge that I fall vastly short of the person I should be, so I don't judge others. However, you seem to enjoy doing it.

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Originally posted by bleedsbluengold24

And as a devout athiest, how would you know that? Or are you just assuming such because you don't care for Christians?

 

See, one of the differences between you and me, other than the fact that you are an athiest and I am a Christian, is that as a Christian, I acknowledge that I fall vastly short of the person I should be, so I don't judge others. However, you seem to enjoy doing it.

 

You and all other Christians judge more than anybody. I cant believe you actually think that you dont judge at all. Walk into Green Acres looking ragged and see what happens. Also are you judging me by asking if I dont care for Christians? I care for all. Do you?

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I'd like to steer this thread back to the intellectual and philosophical level, so again I'll state:

 

If God does not exist, then there are no moral absolutes. There is no right or wrong. There is no good or evil. There is no should or should not.

 

Any problems with that?

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Guest bleedsbluengold24
Originally posted by strawberry66
Originally posted by bleedsbluengold24

And as a devout athiest, how would you know that? Or are you just assuming such because you don't care for Christians?

 

See, one of the differences between you and me, other than the fact that you are an athiest and I am a Christian, is that as a Christian, I acknowledge that I fall vastly short of the person I should be, so I don't judge others. However, you seem to enjoy doing it.

 

You and all other Christians judge more than anybody. I cant believe you actually think that you dont judge at all. Walk into Green Acres looking ragged and see what happens. Also are you judging me by asking if I dont care for Christians? I care for all. Do you?

 

No judgement here. My question about not caring for Christians was base solely on your comments leading up to it. If you say I'm wrong, then I've misinterpretted. But when you make comments like "you and all other Christians" and accuse us of being brainwashed, it makes it pretty easy to say you are judgemental.

 

I'm with SuperScot, I don't want this to spiral into a collection of personal comments about the other's beliefs. We have differing views of God and Christians. I'm okay with that. That's what makes this forum enjoyable.

 

And yes, I do care for everybody. Even you.

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Originally posted by bleedsbluengold24

And as a devout athiest, how would you know that? Or are you just assuming such because you don't care for Christians?

 

See, one of the differences between you and me, other than the fact that you are an athiest and I am a Christian, is that as a Christian, I acknowledge that I fall vastly short of the person I should be, so I don't judge others. However, you seem to enjoy doing it.

 

Quotes by a non judgemental Christian

Quit making excuses for TO. He's a punk. He's over-rated. And I hope th league does something about him this time.

Did I mention distraction?

 

I have to admit, Dallas/Atlanta was the first game I had watched on NFL. I could not have been anymore disappointed. Gumbel has done news magazine too long. Everything he said sounded like one of his old stories. And his observations were terrible. What was worse, sometimes his "facts" weren't facts at all, but completely inaccurate babble.

Find another job Bryant.

Go blow the lid off professional wrestling.

 

These arent judgemental? Or maybe just your opinion? Whats the difference?

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Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

Why do you think it is wrong to be judgemental?

 

I dont at all. In fact I admit on here that I am judgemental.

Why do you need religion to be a good person? What about groups of people that have never heard of God or the Bible. How do you explain why they dont kill each other or rape their children?

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"Why do you need religion to be a good person?"

 

I couldn't care less about "religion". This current discussion is about the existence (or lack thereof) of a deity. It is my contention that without God (or god, if you prefer) there is no such thing as "good". Without God, there is no basis to determine if something is right, wrong, evil, good or great, free and decent, for that matter.

 

"What about groups of people that have never heard of God..."

 

Are there any groups of people (cultures) that do not have some sort of "religion" or transcedent value system? I am not aware of any?

 

"...or the Bible?"

 

Again, to this point, I am only discussing God's existence, not any particular belief system.

 

"How do you explain why they dont kill each other or rape their children?"

 

Because it is the morally, absolutely wrong thing to do. Innately they know that it is wrong. This is one piece of evidence of God's existence. Can you explain it any other way?

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What the you are really saying is that it would certainly be nice if everything on the subject of morality was already decided for us and neatly laid out in categories of black and white. This is right, and this is wrong, period, end of the discussion. But if it isn't that way, then it just isn't that way, and no amount of wishful thinking or praying or hoping will ever change the fact that it isn't that way. We are just in the world on our own and will have to get by the best that we can. The thought of that terrifies most, but it shouldn't. God wasn't much help to us in discovering how to cure or prevent smallpox, diphtheria, typhoid, whooping cough, polio, measles, and dozens of other diseases. We had to do it on our own. God wasn't much help to us in making the scientific discoveries that led to the technology that now makes life so comfortable for us. We had to do it on our own. So if we did all these things without God, surely we can make the moral discoveries that are necessary for society to function in an orderly, beneficial way.

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You could take a nihilist standpoint and argue that because you can't prove or disprove a god, there's no such thing as morals and there's no way for you to prove your morals are the right ones.

 

I think it's lazy to say that without a god there's no good. I do agree, however, that humans are inherently bad, in that they'll do anything if they think they can get away with it. So having a god figure held over their heads might deter things of that nature. Maybe the concept of a god is a fancy existential form of a conscience. So you're probably right, Scot, to say that, but I just don't see why it's necessary to have a god for there to be good in the world.

 

There are some universal truths out there independent of any god or religion because they apply to all of them, so I can't see how one groups idea of a god could cover all of that.

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Originally posted by bleedsbluengold24

Woodgie, why so defensive? SuperScot, just as he did not attack strawberry for his athiesm, did not attack you for yours. But you call his belief that God is the foundation of life silly.

Defensive? How so?

 

Superscot has more than implied that I am wrong about my beliefs on god. When I choose to not beat around the bush and come right out with what I believe, I'm the bad guy. Go figure.

 

It is my contention that without God (or god, if you prefer) there is no such thing as "good". Without God, there is no basis to determine if something is right, wrong, evil, good or great, free and decent, for that matter.

You know, slavery was good and right for quite some time. People were religious in that time, too. Apparently god thought that slavery was moral and decent. That is, until he told Abraham Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation, right?

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"What the you are really saying is that it would certainly be nice if everything on the subject of morality was already decided for us and neatly laid out in categories of black and white."

 

No, what I am really saying is that there are some things that are absolutely wrong (murder, rape, racism, child molesting, etc.) and there are some things that are absolutely right (justice, kindness, respect, charity, good stewardship, truthfulness, faithfulness, etc.) There is good and there is evil. There is decent and there is inappropriate. If there is no transcendent being (God), then these are not transcendent values but merely personal preferences.

 

If they are merely personal preferences, then neither you nor I have any basis for our judgemental tendencies .

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Originally posted by 1stSuperScot

"What the you are really saying is that it would certainly be nice if everything on the subject of morality was already decided for us and neatly laid out in categories of black and white."

 

No, what I am really saying is that there are some things that are absolutely wrong (murder, rape, racism, child molesting, etc.) and there are some things that are absolutely right (justice, kindness, respect, charity, good stewardship, truthfulness, faithfulness, etc.) There is good and there is evil. There is decent and there is inappropriate. If there is no transcendent being (God), then these are not transcendent values but merely personal preferences.

 

If they are merely personal preferences, then neither you nor I have any basis for our judgemental tendencies .

 

Those things were not immoral until the New Testament. Are you dismissing the atrocities order by God or carried out by God in the OT?

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Guest bleedsbluengold24
Originally posted by strawberry66
Originally posted by bleedsbluengold24

And as a devout athiest, how would you know that? Or are you just assuming such because you don't care for Christians?

 

See, one of the differences between you and me, other than the fact that you are an athiest and I am a Christian, is that as a Christian, I acknowledge that I fall vastly short of the person I should be, so I don't judge others. However, you seem to enjoy doing it.

 

Quotes by a non judgemental Christian

Quit making excuses for TO. He's a punk. He's over-rated. And I hope th league does something about him this time.

Did I mention distraction?

 

I have to admit, Dallas/Atlanta was the first game I had watched on NFL. I could not have been anymore disappointed. Gumbel has done news magazine too long. Everything he said sounded like one of his old stories. And his observations were terrible. What was worse, sometimes his "facts" weren't facts at all, but completely inaccurate babble.

Find another job Bryant.

Go blow the lid off professional wrestling.

 

These arent judgemental? Or maybe just your opinion? Whats the difference?

 

You're grasping at straws. My comments are my opinions of TO and Gumbel based on observations. Not judgements. Just conclusions. You're looking for something to judge me about. Whatever. It's obvious you're going to find something to throw back in my face with every comment I post.

 

So be it.

 

This is not a post about TO, or Bryant Gumbel,

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"I do agree, however, that humans are inherently bad, in that they'll do anything if they think they can get away with"

 

Bad compared to what? - Other people, what people think?

 

"I just don't see why it's necessary to have a god for there to be good in the world."

 

Because otherwise, it's all relative!?!?!?!

 

"There are some universal truths out there independent of any god "

 

Such as?

 

As far as which god or whose god - that's a different discussion....

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Originally posted by bleedsbluengold24

You're grasping at straws. My comments are my opinions of TO and Gumbel based on observations. Not judgements. Just conclusions. You're looking for something to judge me about. Whatever. It's obvious you're going to find something to throw back in my face with every comment I post.

 

So be it.

 

This is not a post about TO, or Bryant Gumbel,

 

 

I didnt think you could answer the question but I thought you would try. I agree its not about T.O. or Gumbel but you have judged them according to your opinion.

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