Antler restrictions

[Five0pd310]

An old buddy of mine put it in simple words, "If you kill em when they are young, you never get to see them as full grown." He raises deer and has some amazing racks do to this practice. Some in the 200 class.

 

..and he's exactly right. However, that only works if you assume that small rack always means young buck and that big rack always means old deer. This is not the case. A friend of mine who I am on the lease with killed a very mature buck this year. His 9 pointed antlers were dark and thick with a touch of ivory on the tips. He had a roman nose, droopy belly, and his coat was beginning to get shaggy. Every single aspect of this deer was that it was an old trophy deer ripe for the taking. It measured 13 1/2 inches wide. It was barely legal, but Under any management program, this deer should have been taken.

[Five0pd310]

From my understanding they are supposed to add several more counties next year. I reckon that over the next few years the whole state will be under these guidelines. You are right about there being a lot of uncertainties to be examined with this FiveO. Traditional East Texas hunter have never been able to let bucks of any size walk off for fear the it will just get killed by someone else and then they may not see another one!

 

Look at the link below. There is a map that indicates where the restrictions will be coming next!

 

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/...r_restrictions/

 

I hope it works out well for the big money, trophy hunters. That is the only group this rule is aimed at helping. Everyone else be danged according to TP&WD. Antler stew just doesn't taste that good to me.

[Cats51]

..and he's exactly right. However, that only works if you assume that small rack always means young buck and that big rack always means old deer. This is not the case. A friend of mine who I am on the lease with killed a very mature buck this year. His 9 pointed antlers were dark and thick with a touch of ivory on the tips. He had a roman nose, droopy belly, and his coat was beginning to get shaggy. Every single aspect of this deer was that it was an old trophy deer ripe for the taking. It measured 13 1/2 inches wide. It was barely legal, but Under any management program, this deer should have been taken.

 

 

Did you age the buck?

[Five0pd310]

In every way except the teeth. I wasn't that concerned about it. It was obviously an old deer and it needed to be culled.

[Medman7]

I hope it works out well for the big money, trophy hunters. That is the only group this rule is aimed at helping. Everyone else be danged according to TP&WD. Antler stew just doesn't taste that good to me.

 

 

The thing that worries me FiveO is that as things turn more toward Trophy Hunting The prices for hunting leases will get out of sight for the average hunter and leave most of your locals who do not have access to private land without a place to hunt! It is already getting extremely hard to find a place now days and if you you do, you have to worry from year to year whether or not it will get jerked out from under you. I want to kill a nice Buck like anyone else, but strictly trophy hunting starts running the price of hunting through the roof!

[Five0pd310]

Ditto that. Hunting for food for your family is going by the way side. More people seem to be interested in going on caged hunts than they are providing for their family. It's all a part of the sissification of America.

[Immortal13]

I hope it works out well for the big money, trophy hunters. That is the only group this rule is aimed at helping. Everyone else be danged according to TP&WD. Antler stew just doesn't taste that good to me.

 

This is my point exactly. I like big racks as much as anybody, but I also like deer meat. The size of the rack of the deer I shoot should be my choice. Besides, a governmental agency such as the TP&W should be required to stick to their mandate and not step outside of their bounds. It is not a trend that should be encouraged.

 

five0, i know you were not trying to argue a direct correlation between antler restrictions and deer quantity as a whole. None of us can do so based on our small amount of data that we obtain from the small areas we hunt on. My point is that tp&w has yet to prove any either. And if they can't, they have no business implementing this program.

[Immortal13]

Ditto that. Hunting for food for your family is going by the way side. More people seem to be interested in going on caged hunts than they are providing for their family. It's all a part of the sissification of America.

 

 

Amen five0, canned hunts are lame. Gives real hunters a bad name.

 

[Medman7]

This will stir the pot I know, but I think that High Fences should be outlawed unless you can prove that all deer within that high fence were purchased by you and released into the high fence. Wild Deer are wild and should be for everyone and not fenced up by the the elite with the money for a fence!

[Cats51]

I have a low fence ranch in the Hill Country. We manage our deer herd tru a Management Co-op Program. It works very well. High fence ranches are everywhere in the region. The owners of the ranches actually spend thousands of dollars each year on their deer crop. This is their livelyhood. It's a job to them. Our bucks have increased in body weight and antler size pretty dramatically over the years. The program works. We probably drop on average of 6 bucks a year, but these are glassed closely before being taken. No tolerance for ground shrinkage. We strive to get our required "kill numbers". Sometimes it's harder than one would think to drop the number of does that is required. All in all, it sounds like the TPW is instituting a program with antler restriction that will benefit every hunter for years to come.

[Immortal13]

This will stir the pot I know, but I think that High Fences should be outlawed unless you can prove that all deer within that high fence were purchased by you and released into the high fence. Wild Deer are wild and should be for everyone and not fenced up by the the elite with the money for a fence!

 

i agree

 

[Immortal13]

I have a low fence ranch in the Hill Country. We manage our deer herd tru a Management Co-op Program. It works very well. High fence ranches are everywhere in the region. The owners of the ranches actually spend thousands of dollars each year on their deer crop. This is their livelyhood. It's a job to them. Our bucks have increased in body weight and antler size pretty dramatically over the years. The program works. We probably drop on average of 6 bucks a year, but these are glassed closely before being taken. No tolerance for ground shrinkage. We strive to get our required "kill numbers". Sometimes it's harder than one would think to drop the number of does that is required. All in all, it sounds like the TPW is instituting a program with antler restriction that will benefit every hunter for years to come.

 

Good for you. I prefer to hunt deer naturally, just as they are. I have a brother and a good friend who have both killed B&C deer, +170 and +200 respectively. They were both non-managed, non-fenced deer.......in other words: true trophies. All this artificial insemenation, diet management stuff is garbage. But hey, if that's your thing....good for you. I just don't want it forced on me.

 

What TP&W is doing is "benefitting" themselves. I don't need or want their help to kill a big-racked buck. I would just as soon kill a doe.

 

[sharkb8er]

I personally don't care for the thirteen inch restriction. Too many times the deer in question has forgot to read up on the rules and stop and look at me so I can judge how wide his horns are. I prefer the three pt. rule. Seems to work ok for Arkansas. Dang sure have seen some monster racks come from there!

[GloryBound]

I absolutely agree that TPW is too involved in regulating what deer is killed. I don't have a problem with them setting quantity regulations, etc. but the size of the deer is for the trophy hunter only. If anyone thinks the only deer in the woods are 4,6, and small 8 pointers they aren't hunters. Today, most hunters, want to hunt on the fringes so they don't have to go deep in the woods. On the ranch we hunt, I hunt as far away from everyone as I can. I've seen probably 8-10 different 8 pointers, several sixes, fours, and a few spikes. I ended up catching a great 13 point during the rut (had never seen this deer on the ranch) and had a 10 point (which I also never seen) take up the chase on the doe the 13 was chasing. So, the deer are there if you want to "hunt" them. This is a county that is NOT in the restriction in East Texas. Making this restriction will do nothing to improve the deer herd or the antler size. As a matter of fact, in our county it will still be only one buck Now, a good idea would be to approve doe days, not a ridiculous 4 day, but maybe a 16 or 30 day to maintain the herd. Out of 6 large pastures on this ranch I've hunted two of them and I've seen a minimum of 10-17 does everytime I hunt. Even if the other pastures were half that count the deer herd would be around 60 deer and that requires some control. We are an MLD type 1 and only receive 5 doe tags for the 5 hunters on 600+ acres. That's not enough thinning of the herd. I'm also not just an antler hunter. My family likes deer meat more than beef. I process my own and it really completes the experience. It's a lot of work but when my freezer is full of sausage, venison burger, chili, steak, and roasts as well as a couple of pounds of jerky it has been a good year. With all of the regulations it seems TPW doesn't want us to experience what hunting really is, the full experience. A lot of ranting but that's my thoughts.

[cardad]

My main problem with the rule is that the young hunters are getting bored not being able to shoot anything. The state says that hunter numbers are down and this rule is going to make them go down even further. I have two 15 year old boys who do not hunt near as much as they used to because of this rule- they are afraid to shoot because they don't want to get in trouble if they shoot one under 13 inches. We hunt in Upshur county and the only time they want to hunt now is when we have the 4 doe days or during youth weekend when they can shoot does. Good Job state of Texas way to promote youth into hunting. They should give the kids 1 buck with no restrictions and the other buck be held to the 13 inch rule. Thats my two cents hope the morons change the law before all kids quit hunting.

[Medman7]

I was reading in the paper about the other 54 counties they will be adding next year. In that same article, they were talking about increasing the does days to a full 30. The last time they opened season on does like that the does got slaughtered. Many places in East Texas are still feeling the effects of the kill off that happened then. I will be keeping a watch out for the public meetings when they come up so that I can be there to let them know what type of morons I think they are. The saddest part about it is that they are basing a lot of their information on information such as browse surveys instead of actual deer counts. This mess has already gotten us in trouble once and it will surely do it again. They do not realize how many people are out there that realish the days they get to kill does already much less if they open it up to a full 30 days. I truely think that this will be one more ignorant leap for the TP&W if they do this. It is still too early in the antler restriction management plan to start slaughtering your does. They are already guaranteeing the lives of more bucks to live longer. Start slaughtering the does and then your bucks will then start out numbering your doe population. They must have forgotten about their golden rul of 2 does for every one buck! Then again, they are always cotradicting themselves!

[cardad]

Looking at pics from our cameras the last 3 years it appears that bucks already outnumber does in our part of Upshur county-we are in the LaFayette area. Out of every 10 deer on the pics 2-3 are does 6 small bucks or spikes and maybe 1 that is legal. I am not really for opening up to a 30 day doe season but give us a buck with no restrictions. A trophy to my family is a piece of backstrap on a plate with gravy on it. The state needs to either stop the browse surveys or change their formula to a more realistic value because the MLD leases are being forced to slaughter does. I do not see any way in East Texas that you can get anywhere near a realistic deer count.

[Medman7]

Looking at pics from our cameras the last 3 years it appears that bucks already outnumber does in our part of Upshur county-we are in the LaFayette area. Out of every 10 deer on the pics 2-3 are does 6 small bucks or spikes and maybe 1 that is legal. I am not really for opening up to a 30 day doe season but give us a buck with no restrictions. A trophy to my family is a piece of backstrap on a plate with gravy on it. The state needs to either stop the browse surveys or change their formula to a more realistic value because the MLD leases are being forced to slaughter does. I do not see any way in East Texas that you can get anywhere near a realistic deer count.

 

 

You can't and that is my primary point. This theory based c r a p needs to stop!

[Immortal13]

Glorybound, no need to apologize for your rant. I agree 100%, and am glad there are some that agree with me. Cardad makes a very good point about kids as well.

 

Medman, I couldn't agree more about the doe days. Browse surveys are worthless and stupid. Face it folks, whitetailed deer in East Texas have been flourishing in East Texas for decades, and the best thing TP&W could do is to maintain the status quo. IMO, TP&W is trying to mimick these high fenced ranch procedures in the state of Texas. That is not their job!!

 

 

Quick question: if you have several little tight, basket-racked bucks on your place, wouldn't it improve the overall buck "quality" to remove them?

 

[GloryBound]

Glorybound, no need to apologize for your rant. I agree 100%, and am glad there are some that agree with me. Cardad makes a very good point about kids as well.

 

Medman, I couldn't agree more about the doe days. Browse surveys are worthless and stupid. Face it folks, whitetailed deer in East Texas have been flourishing in East Texas for decades, and the best thing TP&W could do is to maintain the status quo. IMO, TP&W is trying to mimick these high fenced ranch procedures in the state of Texas. That is not their job!!

 

 

Quick question: if you have several little tight, basket-racked bucks on your place, wouldn't it improve the overall buck "quality" to remove them?

 

I think the answer depends on what the overall deer herd is. If you DO have a sufficient quantity of good quality bucks then the answer is yes, if not, then I think it goes a different direction. Rather than harvest you need to set up a good protein feed program and let that improve your herd. As far as the MLD, the game biologists are all different. One gives too many doe permits and the next doesn't give enough. Our biologist has NEVER seen our place and yet he claims he knows how many of the herd should be taken out and he says he's not just looking at our counts, he's looking at counts from all around us. What does that mean? What does all around us mean? It's a different thing if it's 5, 10, 20 or 30 miles away. There's nothing that I can see that supports their system.

 

[Medman7]

Add to that the fact that deer hold better in aome areas than others even within a 10 mile radius. All areaas should never be categorized together when determining kill ratios. That is asking for nothing but problems because the person that does not see many deer will be wondering what happened when all of a sudden he is not seeing any because the biologist told the lease next to him to open season on the does. As I have said before, there ae still some areas around here that still have not recovered from the last time they opened season on the does back in the 80's. It caused a horrible imbalance in the populations of several areas and I thinkit could share some blame in the reason there are an overabundance of inferior bucks in an area. The bucks are not the only ones that have to have good genetics for breeding good bucks! The genetics have to come from both the doe and the buck!

[GloryBound]

Add to that the fact that deer hold better in aome areas than others even within a 10 mile radius. All areaas should never be categorized together when determining kill ratios. That is asking for nothing but problems because the person that does not see many deer will be wondering what happened when all of a sudden he is not seeing any because the biologist told the lease next to him to open season on the does. As I have said before, there ae still some areas around here that still have not recovered from the last time they opened season on the does back in the 80's. It caused a horrible imbalance in the populations of several areas and I thinkit could share some blame in the reason there are an overabundance of inferior bucks in an area. The bucks are not the only ones that have to have good genetics for breeding good bucks! The genetics have to come from both the doe and the buck!

 

I agree with everything you've written about this issue. I think I'll try to find out when there will be open forum on this subject in Tyler and go this time and voice my opinion.

 

[Five0pd310]

I think they should allow a doe to be shot each year, 1 per hunter. "Doe days" should be done away with. This is actually the first year where I was able to hunt during the doe season at all. It just so happened that the two years prior to this one, our lease was LAMPS.

 

The kill off of does from the early days happened when they basically had open season on all antlerless deer. We had the same restrictions up here as they have in south Texas now: 5 deer total, no more then 2 with antlers. Some people were taking their 5 doe allotment. Yes, that is bad practice. But ever since that time, East Texas has pretty much banned all doe hunting. That is just as bad as slaughtering the does. There has to be a middle ground. My opinion is that they should cut the doe harvest back from 2 for each hunter, down to 1, but open the doe season throughout the entire deer season.

 

I remember reading an article in my American Hunter magazine where they were talking about the antler restrictions. The people who had actually began that trend (in whatever State that was) said that their goal was NOT to keep people from shooting young deer, but to encourage people to shoot a doe. They said that people had become too much of trophy hunters and that it was destroying the deer herds quality. That's the problem we had at our lease. NON ONE was shooting does, even though we had doe tags. They found it "not manly" to do so. Our doe-buck ratio had gotten so bad that it was not uncommon to see more than 100 deer in a season but no bucks. Over the past three years, I'll admit it has gotten better, but I know that it has nothing to do with people not shooting deer of less than 13", but because people are finally shooting some does, because they know that with the new rules, the possiblility of taking a buck is lower.

[Medman7]

FiveO,

I would probably be ok with the one doe limit. I agree with some doe killing. It should be done very cautiously though. The one doe limit would probably be and excellent decision. That yould at least allow the young hunters to kill something and not come out of the season completely empty handed. As soon as I hear of an open forum I will mention this plan. I think this would be the best option! If nothing else allow the youth hunters the ability to kill the one doe for the first year or so and see how that puts a dent in the population. Initiating the doe kill in stages woul be safer that creaing the regrets of the past!