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#1 Champipple68

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 10:43 PM

I agree with HF Cards in the earlier RW topic that Redwater can be competitive in football. It was stated by someone else in that post that Redwater would never be competitive on a regular basis. That has been true in previous years but I don't believe it has to continue. The brief glimpses of success that this program has had in the past have been due to one or at most two good classes of athletes coming through together. The current underclassmen at RW have experienced a great deal of success and these kids know how to win. The Junior High and Junior Varsity teams were both very successful this year against teams that you would have expected to dominate Redwater in years past. The 7th grade team finished first in a tough district and the 8th graders were runners up. The JV team was also successful . The Dragons swept Queen City, Hooks and LK in subvarsity competition and won two out of three from Daingerfield, Hughes Springs, and Paul Pewitt.

My point is that RW has at least 4 consecutive classes of solid athletes coming that have won on a consistent basis and a good class of juniors returning. There is no reason for the old RW tradition to continue. If the stigma can ever be broken the time is now. With hard work and a tough new attitude things might just change!
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#2 68Hornet

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 11:03 PM

I heard some folks in Redwater were upset because Maud was being successful and they didn't understand why Redwater couldn't be the same way. Put Maud in Redwater's district and see what they do against Daingerfield, New Boston and Paul Pewitt. Put Redwater in Maud's district and the Dragons would be a playoff team. This is not meant as any disrespect to Maud. The Cardinals were a great Class A team.

#3 silverado04

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 10:28 AM

You are correct in one way. The only success the school has ever had is when that one exceptional class comes along every once is a while. The next few years could be good (must take realignment into account) so why make the change in AD. Is it Coach Hoff's fault that the gene pool was so shallow the last three years. You need to remember that this is the man who took the worst program in the state and had them in the playoffs in three years. The program struggled the next two years but made great improvements last year. The fact that they were 3-7 was a tribute to both the kids and the staff. With a break here and there they could have been 5-5 or better. Remember that the best back went down in week 6. I wonder if the firing of the AD had more to do with some school board members kids then with the direction of the program. Maybe they were afraid that the team would be successful this year and it would be harder to get him out. Any way it was handled in the worst possible manner and totally without class.

#4 sharkb8er

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 11:14 AM

QUOTE (mrknowitall @ Jan 19 2008, 11:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I heard some folks in Redwater were upset because Maud was being successful and they didn't understand why Redwater couldn't be the same way. Put Maud in Redwater's district and see what they do against Daingerfield, New Boston and Paul Pewitt. Put Redwater in Maud's district and the Dragons would be a playoff team. This is not meant as any disrespect to Maud. The Cardinals were a great Class A team.


Oh my gosh knowitall! Don't tell me that you are falling into that catagory of people who believe that the sucess of a smaller school is pale in the comparison to the moderate success of a bigger school. I debated this point last year when comparing T-high with the then state champions, LE. T-high fans arguement that T-high was the best football team in texarkana did not hold water with me. Therefore, RW should not try to be compared with success of a 1A team.


#5 Dirtrich

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 03:12 PM

I agree with you silverado04 about only one thing you said. It probably should have been handled in a better manner. Everything else is just an excuse. Getting those breaks hear and there comes from teams dedicated and well prepared. Injuries are part of the game and every team has them....again another excuse. When your the worse school in the state any coaching change will only improve your rankings. Besides, those truly were the "Black" years in RW history. Look at Hooks, LK, HS, Pewitt, QC and Dekalb's records within the last six years. You add up the win/loss for the last six years and all except QC have at least a 50 % winning record. And QC is looking for their third head coach within that time frame. At least their trying to find a winner. Hoff's winning is 28%. This idea that the gene pool has been shallow is an insult to those athletes and especially the Sr. class. Its funny but I dont hear those excuses from other teams in that district. The talent is there, they just need someone to come in and sell his program (starting at the PeeWee level age) to Redwater's athletes and parents and to instill in the kids minds mental toughness and a year round dedication to weight training. And from what I have been told, those kids quit on him as the year went on and that is something that is unexceptable. I applaud the RW board for the change and hope that they find someone that can start a winning tradition every year, not just when the so-called gene pool favors you every so often. If they do, I might just bring my kids back to RW.

#6 maroakie2

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 04:21 PM

I don't know anyone from RW and the little I know about their program is only from the fact that I played them a couple of times. Furthermore, I am not trying to take anything away from RW's sub-varsity accomplishments. With all of my disclaimers said, sub-varsity is a great indicator of what type of athletes you have, but very little indication of how they will fare at the the varsity level. A year on weights and those schools RW swept could flip the tables (or RW could beat them twice as bad). Varsity success comes from lots of hard weights in the offseason and summer. I hear all the time about how hard the kids work at the successful schools, but you don't hear that much about the losing schools. I don't know your sub-varsity kids, they may work out all the time, my point is that sub-varsity wins are not an indication of the future, only an indication of athletic ability. Given a kid with athletic ability or a hard worker, I pick the hard worker every day of the week.

#7 NETexasFan

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 01:42 PM

I'm two sided on this. On one hand, I think they should have let him finish his contract out. Contracts don't seem to mean squat these days anymore. On the other hand, having one good season, doesn't justify keeping a coach around. The year they got to the playoffs wasn't 50% coaching and 50%players. Since then, and before that one year, has Redwater been competitive in football? I don't like to hear the gene pool argument.

You can't tell me that Paul Pewitt, Daingerfield, and Atlanta just "grow" them year after year. Those kids are driven by coaches in a system that seems to work year in and year out.

All of this is in my OPINION. Take a poll in the community(outside of school kids and their parents) and see how many think that Redwater footballis something to be proud of. I don't think that the AD is 100% at fault for the results that Redwater has endured over his tenure, but plays a big roll.

I'm not sure why the kids want to keep him as head coach. I've heard signs have been put up around the city of Redwater asking for one more year. One more year of what, losses? Why all of the fuss?

Again, I still think he should've been able to finish his contract out as AD.

#8 Buzzard

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE (NETexasFan @ Jan 24 2008, 08:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm two sided on this. On one hand, I think they should have let him finish his contract out. Contracts don't seem to mean squat these days anymore. On the other hand, having one good season, doesn't justify keeping a coach around. The year they got to the playoffs wasn't 50% coaching and 50%players. Since then, and before that one year, has Redwater been competitive in football? I don't like to hear the gene pool argument.

You can't tell me that Paul Pewitt, Daingerfield, and Atlanta just "grow" them year after year. Those kids are driven by coaches in a system that seems to work year in and year out.

All of this is in my OPINION. Take a poll in the community(outside of school kids and their parents) and see how many think that Redwater footballis something to be proud of. I don't think that the AD is 100% at fault for the results that Redwater has endured over his tenure, but plays a big roll.

I'm not sure why the kids want to keep him as head coach. I've heard signs have been put up around the city of Redwater asking for one more year. One more year of what, losses? Why all of the fuss?

Again, I still think he should've been able to finish his contract out as AD.

Well, in my opinion sometimes (often) successful schools do have bigger and faster athletes naturally, year in and year out. I don't know why, other than genetics, but it is a fact that some schools just have better athletes most years, and some schools have inferior athletes (great kids, just little and slow) most years.

#9 flukeshot

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 02:38 PM

Coaches leave for better opportunities all the time, so appeals to loyalty leave me a little cold.

By the way, with a break here or there, Redwater could have been one and nine this season. I have no dog in this fight, but that bit of logic works both ways.

#10 RKS21

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 08:11 AM

So how did the board meeting go last night? When will the interviews begin ?

#11 68Hornet

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 09:50 AM

QUOTE (sharkb8er @ Jan 21 2008, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh my gosh knowitall! Don't tell me that you are falling into that catagory of people who believe that the sucess of a smaller school is pale in the comparison to the moderate success of a bigger school. I debated this point last year when comparing T-high with the then state champions, LE. T-high fans arguement that T-high was the best football team in texarkana did not hold water with me. Therefore, RW should not try to be compared with success of a 1A team.


We'll have to agree to disagree, because I firmily believe what I've said with this example. I think Maud would have beaten Redwater this year (just my opinion), but I don't think Maud would have been top 3 in Redwater's district. I also think Redwater would have been a playoff team in Maud's district.

#12 WriteUR

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 03:56 PM

QUOTE (silverado04 @ Jan 21 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are correct in one way. The only success the school has ever had is when that one exceptional class comes along every once is a while. The next few years could be good (must take realignment into account) so why make the change in AD. Is it Coach Hoff's fault that the gene pool was so shallow the last three years. You need to remember that this is the man who took the worst program in the state and had them in the playoffs in three years. The program struggled the next two years but made great improvements last year. The fact that they were 3-7 was a tribute to both the kids and the staff. With a break here and there they could have been 5-5 or better. Remember that the best back went down in week 6. I wonder if the firing of the AD had more to do with some school board members kids then with the direction of the program. Maybe they were afraid that the team would be successful this year and it would be harder to get him out. Any way it was handled in the worst possible manner and totally without class.


I don't have a dog in this hunt but I have closely followed NE Texas football for years. I remember the Billy Simms Hooks Hornets, the 1980 Pittsburgh State Champs, the Thomas Everett Daingerfield State Champs in the mid '80s, LE State champs in the 90's and 2000's, T-High, Atlanta, etc. All of those teams had good athletes AND good coaching. I also remember when Williams coached teams at Redwater in the years before they went to 3A. They were in the hunt for the playoffs every year but one even though they only made it once. Then 3A killed that program. Everyone seems to want to compare Hoff's years to the Black years of 3A. Black's teams were beaten horribly in 3A but Hoff's teams are getting beat just as bad in 2A. I don't have anything against Hoff but if you are going to blame the gene pool then lets compare apples to apples. Maud is a good example. Any school in NE Texas would be glad to have the 3 D-Lineman at Maud but all other players are average at best (No disrepect intended to the Hill kid but he doesn't have the speed to compete in the 2A, 3A, 4A's of NE Texas). Coach Finney is the difference in that program. A trained monkey could have gotten them in the playoffs in that district but Finney is the reason they didn't lose the first round and almost ran the table. Let me be the first (although I'm sure its already a given in Maud) to congratulate Coach Finney and Maud as the 2008 1A State Football Champions. notworthy.gif



#13 fishin247

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 06:08 PM

Maud has achieved their success through much,much hard work,determination, and perseverance.They lost their starting quarterback the very first game.Serious knee injury-wam!Out for the season!The team could have fallen apart, but they handled this adversity as a challenge and rallied behind the freshman backup quarterback that was thrown in the hot seat.What a ride it was!!Coach Finney is one of the hardest working young coaches I have ever seen.His work ethics and enthusiasm pass down to the players,who are expected to give nothing less than 110%.Do I think Maud 's team is the most athletic in its school history,and only now has the athletes to compete?No, I do not.Their success was due to their belief in themselves,having a motivated coaching staff believing in them,and never giving up.The basketball and baseball programs also went several rounds into the playoffs.People can say what they want to about this little 1A town,but if the students are involved in sports here,they for sure won't have time to get in any outside trouble with the workout schedule they have.You gotta' believe.

#14 WriteUR

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE (fishin247 @ Jan 25 2008, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maud has achieved their success through much,much hard work,determination, and perseverance.They lost their starting quarterback the very first game.Serious knee injury-wam!Out for the season!The team could have fallen apart, but they handled this adversity as a challenge and rallied behind the freshman backup quarterback that was thrown in the hot seat.What a ride it was!!Coach Finney is one of the hardest working young coaches I have ever seen.His work ethics and enthusiasm pass down to the players,who are expected to give nothing less than 110%.Do I think Maud 's team is the most athletic in its school history,and only now has the athletes to compete?No, I do not.Their success was due to their belief in themselves,having a motivated coaching staff believing in them,and never giving up.The basketball and baseball programs also went several rounds into the playoffs.People can say what they want to about this little 1A town,but if the students are involved in sports here,they for sure won't have time to get in any outside trouble with the workout schedule they have.You gotta' believe.


I agree with you whole heartedly but you have to admit that basketball does seem to be suffering this year. I know they have those guys that are 6'4" or better with all kinds of strength but it is not resulting in wins on the basketball court. What am I saying? This is supposed to be about Redwater Football according to the title. Sorry guys, I got carried away.



#15 WriteUR

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE (silverado04 @ Jan 21 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are correct in one way. The only success the school has ever had is when that one exceptional class comes along every once is a while. The next few years could be good (must take realignment into account) so why make the change in AD. Is it Coach Hoff's fault that the gene pool was so shallow the last three years. You need to remember that this is the man who took the worst program in the state and had them in the playoffs in three years. The program struggled the next two years but made great improvements last year. The fact that they were 3-7 was a tribute to both the kids and the staff. With a break here and there they could have been 5-5 or better. Remember that the best back went down in week 6. I wonder if the firing of the AD had more to do with some school board members kids then with the direction of the program. Maybe they were afraid that the team would be successful this year and it would be harder to get him out. Any way it was handled in the worst possible manner and totally without class.


I talked with some friends today and got their insight on the Redwater football program. They don't blame the kids (so who does that leave?). They realize that they don't have the overall breakaway speed that other districts but they feel the real problem is the kids have not been taught sound fundamentals and the other schools seem stronger physically. Apparently the worst coaching move was when the AD gave up coaching offense and started coaching defense. The offense got a lot better, scored lots more points and many more big plays. The defense got a lot worse and gave up 50 points a game. When you look it that way is seems easy to see where the weak link is and hard to blame it all on the kids.



#16 swc4qb

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 01:57 PM

People of the community will always blame the COACHES for their lack of success. Families and friends look through a different glass. I remember when I played HS football. My parents, my buddies parents, other teammates parents, all thought that we were going to win State. We had not made the playoffs in 11 years. Well what happened. We went 4-6 and made it 12 years in a row. All the parents finger pointing went to the coach and what do all the players start to do, point the finger at the coach as well. Now that I am a coach, I look back on that and laugh. How many drop passes were there, how many bad throws, how many missed tackles.........All things we worked on in practice. How come you see a coach who is successful one year (or at another place) and then not the next? It is because the difference of kids. Dont get me wrong, can a coach bring a program down? Of course, but more often then not it is the players. How much extra is the kids doing outside of school to make themselves better? Is the weight room packed or empty? Are there kids out on the field or at home on the couch? What do the kids do on the weekends with their buddies? Get a coach that can convince the kids that doing those things extra will make the difference and your program will see significant gains. The teams winning State or going 2-3 deep every year will all tell you about their kids committment outside of the school. You would be blown away to hear some of the things that there kids do in the summer to get ready for football. I am not talking about the 2 hours the coaches get with them either. My years in HS as a team would have been a lot more productive had my teammates committed their outside time to getting better.

#17 teamplayer123

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE (swc4qb @ Jan 28 2008, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
People of the community will always blame the COACHES for their lack of success. Families and friends look through a different glass. I remember when I played HS football. My parents, my buddies parents, other teammates parents, all thought that we were going to win State. We had not made the playoffs in 11 years. Well what happened. We went 4-6 and made it 12 years in a row. All the parents finger pointing went to the coach and what do all the players start to do, point the finger at the coach as well. Now that I am a coach, I look back on that and laugh. How many drop passes were there, how many bad throws, how many missed tackles.........All things we worked on in practice. How come you see a coach who is successful one year (or at another place) and then not the next? It is because the difference of kids. Dont get me wrong, can a coach bring a program down? Of course, but more often then not it is the players. How much extra is the kids doing outside of school to make themselves better? Is the weight room packed or empty? Are there kids out on the field or at home on the couch? What do the kids do on the weekends with their buddies? Get a coach that can convince the kids that doing those things extra will make the difference and your program will see significant gains. The teams winning State or going 2-3 deep every year will all tell you about their kids committment outside of the school. You would be blown away to hear some of the things that there kids do in the summer to get ready for football. I am not talking about the 2 hours the coaches get with them either. My years in HS as a team would have been a lot more productive had my teammates committed their outside time to getting better.




As a coach myself, I totally agree.&amp;nbsp; You get kids that do nothing all summer long, then show up for two a days (along with their parents)&amp;nbsp; and think they should start and we should&amp;nbsp;win state!&amp;nbsp; It is unbelievable!!&amp;nbsp; Not only that but you always have some kid or parent say," My kids a senior, why is he/ she&amp;nbsp;not playing, he is better than that sophmore".&amp;nbsp; "He was on the "A" team in middle school".&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Hello!!The sophmore went to camps and worked in the gym all summer.&amp;nbsp; Where were you?&amp;nbsp; Anyhow, dont get me started about&amp;nbsp;undedicated players, who think they dont have to work hard, because they had a gift in jr. high.&amp;nbsp; The sad thing is a lot of kids do.&amp;nbsp; But then they meet girs/ boys, partying, and etc..&amp;nbsp; Thats when athletics becomes something you do only in the period or season.

#18 WriteUR

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 03:08 PM

QUOTE (teamplayer123 @ Jan 29 2008, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As a coach myself, I totally agree.&amp;nbsp; You get kids that do nothing all summer long, then show up for two a days (along with their parents)&amp;nbsp; and think they should start and we should&amp;nbsp;win state!&amp;nbsp; It is unbelievable!!&amp;nbsp; Not only that but you always have some kid or parent say," My kids a senior, why is he/ she&amp;nbsp;not playing, he is better than that sophmore".&amp;nbsp; "He was on the "A" team in middle school".&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Hello!!The sophmore went to camps and worked in the gym all summer.&amp;nbsp; Where were you?&amp;nbsp; Anyhow, dont get me started about&amp;nbsp;undedicated players, who think they dont have to work hard, because they had a gift in jr. high.&amp;nbsp; The sad thing is a lot of kids do.&amp;nbsp; But then they meet girs/ boys, partying, and etc..&amp;nbsp; Thats when athletics becomes something you do only in the period or season.



You guys are the coaches so I guess I must bow to the greater knowledge. notworthy.gif I WAS of the opinion that everyone (parent, coach, and kid) should share in the blame and this was a simple matter of when what you are doing is not working, it is time to try to change SOMETHING. But your strong argument has convinced me that you are right! It's all the kids fault just like their EX-coach said. How dare those parents expect to pay 50,000, 60,000 or even 70,000+ of their tax dollars per year for a guy to motivate and teach those kids what it takes to be winners when they should learn that on their own. How dare we expect someone to motivate the kids to do EXTRA work on their own. And I wouldn't even dream of asking an AD to be held accountable for losing 5 out of 6 seasons because we all know there is no such thing as a bad coach...only bad athletes.



#19 swc4qb

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:31 PM

If the coach was not attempting to do those things, then yes he is in the wrong. But I dont see a coach not trying to those things. Let me guess, he just got lucky that he made the playoffs that one year. The kids made up for his lack of coaching abilities, or motivation. Coaches dont change, the type of kids you have do. I noticed by your sarcam that you blame the coach for the reason kids did nothing out side of school. Programs that have continued success have all of the ingredients it takes to be successful. These things are in order.........Supportive community (not one that just WANTS to win, but one that KNOWS what it takes to win), Tradition, Hard working kids (Just because little Johnny is breathing hard doesnt mean he is working hard---Year round dedication), Coaches and Administration are on the same page in what they believe.

Now as an AD you can do things to help these things, but if you are constantly hitting a brick wall everytime you turn around, then you are eventually under the impression that people do not want change and so you try to make do with what you have. I know a lot of the people that are getting on here are just so happy to see a coach go, and maybe it will be for the best for HIM and the kids at Redwater. Redwater has never had continued success and what makes the people of that community know, or understand, what it takes to be successful.



#20 RedCreek49

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 09:28 PM

QUOTE (mrknowitall @ Jan 19 2008, 11:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I heard some folks in Redwater were upset because Maud was being successful and they didn't understand why Redwater couldn't be the same way. Put Maud in Redwater's district and see what they do against Daingerfield, New Boston and Paul Pewitt. Put Redwater in Maud's district and the Dragons would be a playoff team. This is not meant as any disrespect to Maud. The Cardinals were a great Class A team.



I wonder what would happen if you combined Maud and Redwater into one school? Would that move them into 3A or would they stay 2A? For that matter how would it look if you combined Maud, James Bowie, Redwater, New Boston, Dekalb and Hooks into one school. They would be a 4A school and probably pretty good too. That would be a Bowie County High! Well...I guess that is a topic for another post.




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