Is anyone here a nonbeliever? How many people of varying faiths?

Let us have a discussion/debate over religion, without getting heated. No condemning someone to Hell, no calling someone an idiot for their beliefs. This is an exercise of freedom of religion.

I guess we can start with a topic of argument:

In Matthew 5:17-18 it states that Jesus wants Christians to follow the Old Testament word for word. Why don't they? And why do they actively disregard the parts of the old testament which they don't agree with or which are socially unacceptable these days? For instance, Leviticus is full of strange commands like avoiding a woman while menstruating for seven days and everything she touches. What about the killing of witches, casting out of demons, stoning of adulterers/gays? If this is truly the work of God and not something that can be questioned, why do we not do these things anymore if we are commanded to?

Here are the verses you mentioned: Matthew 5: 17 - 18: 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.


When Jesus ascended into heaven, all was accomplished....everything that the OT prophets foretold had been fulfilled in His life, death, resurrection, his ascension into heaven, and the advent of the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the church of Christ......all of it had been fulfilled and so the Law was nailed to the cross....

Colossians 2: 13 - 15: 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him."

The book of Romans shows us in eloquent fashion how we are no longer under the Old Law, but have been given a new Law....we do not have to follow the Law of Moses anymore because it has been fulfilled and nailed to the cross....we are now under the Law of Christ, the Law of Grace, the Perfect Law of Liberty......

What is strange about avioding a women who is menstrating ? I try to stay away from being the target of domestic disputes .

I personally believe in organized religions. They help people in many ways. I've chosen the religion that I have seen follow after the teachings of Jesus Christ. In my opinion, the religion you choose may be right for you. God sure hasn't told the world what they should believe in. He has given us clues, in how we should live our lives.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law of the Old Testament, and He did away with the sacrifices of goats, rams, birds, and most of all sheep. He fulfilled the law of the lamb, as Abraham was commanded, and Abraham fulfilled his test with Isaac.

However God knows that we are mere mortals and sinners. With today's modern thinkers, some would say His way is deformed, and hideous. What kind of God would allow humans to murder His only begotten Son to save a bunch of uncaring, ungrateful, sacks of dirt like us ? Within that is the beauty of it, and the Glory of Jesus Christ. God didn't have to send His Son, but He did.

To answer your question, Isaiah 45 gives us many answers.

Seems fairly solved.

A question about God- Omniscience and Omnipotence:

If God is all-knowing, it means he knows everything that will happen, it is all part of his plan. But, how can he be all-powerful if so? If he wanted to go against his plan, or change things, do something different than he had intended, could he?

And, if he hadn't known he was going to do it, is he still all-knowing? And, if he can't go against what he knew was going to happen, how is he all-powerful? It seems omniscience and omnipotence is contradictory.

He is perfect....He would never have to change any part or portion of His plan because anything He planned would be perfect and not in need of change....omniscience and omnipotence are not mutually exclusive in the case of the Perfect Being.....

So, why do people pray? If his plan is perfect, then whatever is happening in your life will or will not change on it's own, because that was planned previously by God.

And, if he knows whatever you will do, even when you try to change things, what sort of free will do we have? He knows what we will inevitably choose because he has designed the outcome of the future. Therefore, he knows who will go to Hell, and who will not. And, because he knew this beforehand, and as an all-powerful being did not change it, he is by the transitive property choosing who gets into Heaven and who is damned from birth to go to Hell.

And how do you know that he would never want to change things? Where in the Bible does it say that God chose exactly how things would go, and would never go against his own plan?

Prayer is how we talk to God....He talks to us through His revealed Word, which is recorded for us in the Bible. It is there where He reveals to us the path to come back to Him after we have sinned. WE are the imperfections....God knows that we will sin. He has given us the way to come back to Him...the choice is left up to US whether to accept or not. He didn't make the choice...just because He already knows the outcome doesn't make Him the one who chose the outcome....We condemn ourselves by our own choices...God is infinite...the laws of nature and math break down when infinities are involved....the transitive property is irrelevant where the infinite is concerned......

Colmes, perfectly said... If you're not a Sunday school teacher to teenagers, YOU SHOULD BE!

If God is all powerful and created the universe he also created the laws by which it behaves.
This would include the laws of logic and mathematics as well as the physical laws.
If God created the laws of logic he himself would then be logical.
Why then would a logical entity create and then break his own laws?

If God can make plans, think logically or exist, then logic is an arch-power that encompasses God and gives reason for god's existence which appears to refute the idea that God could be the creator of logic.

The first-cause argument for God is partially undermined. If there is no logical reason why God exists then it is more likely that there no logical reason why the Universe exists, and that instead of assuming that the organisational force is a 'god', it's simpler and more rational to assume that it is the universe itself. It appears that whether God exists for logical reasons or not a fundamental contradiction occurs. The only answer is that creator-gods cannot possibly exist. Atheism is more logical.

This is also true if God is placed "beyond logic". And if it is said that Human logic is incapable of realizing such metaphysical truths, then this also undermines any argument that can be made by one human to another, for the existence of god.

If God indeed exists and is all-powerful, consider this: Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it? If he cannot, then he is not all powerful. If he cannot lift it, he is not all-powerful. Therefore, the idea of omnipotence is illogical. And, God is supposed to be "perfect". Being illogical is not an element of being perfect, it would contradict it.

Prayer is a gift of God to us as a way to fellowship with Him. When we pray, we are not merely asking God to "do stuff for us" but by nature are submitting ourselves to God's authority and sovereignty. We exist on this earth to glorify our Creator, and in John 14:13 Jesus tells us that prayer is answered to "the glory of the father." When we pray to God we are submitting ourselves to His will and demonstrating His glory...and God always works for His own glory. Just because God knows what we will or will not pray does not mean that it is ineffective...we do not know the plans of God. God, in His foreknowledge, knows what we will pray for and provides for it in advance to the glory of Himself. It does not mean that the choice to pray is not ours.

I'm going to answer your question about heaven and hell, but in another post because I need time to type out a proper response. I will give you a preview: God is sovereign and His purposes can never be thwarted. We have free will and choice to be a part of those purposes. God is glorified both through heaven and through hell regardless.

God is entirely and perfectly sovereign. What He says, goes.

Isaiah 46:9-10 point to this: "I am God, and there is no other: I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying "My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose."

So does Daniel 4:34-35 : "His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, 'what have you done?'"

What needs to be pointed out about the sovereignty of God is that it covers everything: good, bad, times of goodness and times of calamity. God reigns over all. In Job, Satan has to ask God for permission to torment Job. We also learn from Job that "no purposes of God can be thwarted" (Job 42:2). Jeremiah witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem and was heartsick...yet still in Lamentations 3 he says "Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the LORD has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?" (Lam 3:37-38) The evil that Satan causes is only by the permission of God. As John Piper puts it "it would be unbiblical and irreverent to attribute to Satan (or to sinful man) the power to frustrate the plans of God."

There are TONS of examples of God recognizing sin beforehand and using it for His purposes...in Acts 2:23, Peter essentially says that God knew Judas' heart and glorified Himself through that betrayal. Even when we try really, really, really hard to take away His glory through sin...God will accomplish His purposes and demonstrate His glory regardless.

I Corinthians 1: 18 - 31 "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."



Sounds like JohnStamos is an atheist or an agnostic.....I'm finished with him....you guys carry on if you wish......I'm going to follow the advice of our Savior.....

Matthew 7: 6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you."

That is a very typical philosophical argument that is posted on several atheist websites and championed by atheist heroes such as Richard Dawkins. There are several books that discuss the topic, including "The Reason for God' by Tim Keller.

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?' 'Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?' For from him and through him and to him are all things." (Romans 11:33-36)

I agree to an extent. If he is going to ask his own questions with a real willingness to learn and have a conversation, then the conversation is useful and should be continued.

However, if the original poster is just going to copy/paste arguments from atheist websites and not ask real questions from his own heart, then there is no point.

You can tell from his posts that he is trolling and not trying to learn anything...I'll not cast my pearls before him anymore.....

I think you hit the nail on the head right there. I believed it to be genuine at the beginning, but after a few posts it became obvious that these weren't his original ideas and they were likely being copied from somewhere else.

I ask my questions because I want to honestly see responses from Christians. Regardless of my opinions or affiliations, you should not cast me aside or ignore my thoughts. You may choose to, but does it reflect well on you?

I did copy and paste a segment of argument, because I thought that the wording was better than what I would have said. I google searched what I was thinking and found that other arguments had been carried out. I wanted to see what the people of this forum's area had to say about these things. Dismissal because of anything related to ad hominem is wrong, in my opinion.

Trolling? You make assumptions. I regularly engage in conversation with people who have differing views than myself in order to fully understand their mindsets. I may not convert, but I want to know why you think and act the way you do.

It seems like the Bible, in some places, is trying to tell its followers to beware the arguments against itself, much like the Quran does, much like the Book of Mormon. Instead of creating an open forum, it advises its followers to turn blind eyes toward knowledge and intelligent thought, instead saying to go with emotion. If I can find it, there's a place in the Bible that says God values knowledge, and another in another area that says the total opposite. I have a large list of contradictions found throughout, somewhere.

This verse- Matthew 7: 6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you." - if it is in the context of what you imply, seems to go against a lot of the more kind, equal treatment areas of the Bible.

Not many come to an East Texas Sports message board to discus religion unless

A. You are a troll
B. You have been kicked off here before for the same reason
C. You just want to argue which brings us back to A!

John Stamos you have been asking some questions now I want you to answer one.

Why is there good in this world?

I challenge you right now to find any contradiction in the Holy Word of God......don't talk it, do it.....I anxiously await this duel......

This is funny! Ole boy did exactly what Jesus said would happen. He trampled it and attacked.

What more proof for your own unbelief do you need?

This is the exact reason that we have the Book of Jonah. You see, we can question the reasons of God, and His will shall come forth. However God has changed His mind, many times. Jonah asked to die, and Jonah was shown the great works of God in many ways, but God does understand things far greater than us. The story of Jonah also shows the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It shows that even today, there will be those that don't appreciate the signs of God, will still be spared. God allowed for 6,000 inhabitants of Nineveh to be spared from His wrath, because of Jonah's trials. It also showed that when people repent, God is there for them.

Is there a reason that God should repent as shown in Chapter 3 verse 10 ? Jonah was upset with God after the mercy that God gave, just as many are with those that they feel that they are better than SINNERS.

God gives us the opportunity to come unto Him, and if you're upset as Jonah was, perhaps you should think of the gourd that God shewed unto Jonah, and sent a worm to humble him by.

Just one detail....and a minor one...there were 120,000 children in Nineveh. God was showing Jonah that he, Jonah, had more compassion for a plant than for all those people in Nineveh.....it is a great lesson on mercy and compassion.......Good post, Dave....

Do you believe the Jonah story literally, including his staying in the belly of a great fish for days without oxygen or sustenance?

why not? as a Christian, i believe in miracles.

So, you see no element of the Bible as metaphor, or just a sort of morality-based fairy tale?

I'll admit I was quick reading while watching the Yankees versus Phillies, and over read the score part.

To answer John Stamos, perhaps he should read this account in 1891 of James Bartley : http://www.ycaol.com/swallowed.htm

I read the story long ago in a Peoples Almanac written by David Wallechinsky and Irving Wallace. It was a book that my friend Phillip Rassak shared with me.

i believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. if that make me a chump in your eyes, i can live with it. it's a win-win for me. if it's not real, i've lived a moral life and harmed no one deliberalely. if it's true (as i believe), i spend eternity with God and His beloved son, Jesus Christ.

Becuase Jesus said it happened.
Luke 11:29-32 (New International Version


The Sign of Jonah
²⁹As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. ³⁰For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. ³¹The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one^[a] greater than Solomon is here. ³²The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.


So do tell Stamos. Why is there so much good in this world?

Yes....



Only the parts that are meant to be that way....and it is easy to tell which ones fit that bill.....

Non-believer trying to argue with believers... ain't gonna happen...we "see" right through ya...

Fairy tale? No
Are parts of the Bible metaphor? Sure.
Are parts literally true? Yes
Can some parts be both literal and metaphor? Sure. Why not?

The metaphors were called parables. There were many events of the Bible that can't be explained by educated men. I have experienced many miracles in my life on earth, that can't be explained by man's science or math. I've said many times on this board, that when it is revealed how it was done, we'll really know that we are stupid human beings. God just doesn't want us to know how ignorant we are of His ways.

We as simple human beings, will simply go WOW. We could have done so much more, but we didn't listen, and understand what God was trying to tell us. Why ? because of our Pride and Vanity.

Why is it that an omnipotent, omniscient being, feels jealousy and anger, and feels that one race of the people he created are superior to another?

Also, here's another question for discussion:

Biblical scholars agree that the Old Testament was written in Babylon, which was a melting pot of the Mesopotamian cultures. The Babylonians were very lenient and allowed any religion to exist in their city, as long as it didn't interfere with other folks' rights, etc. The Jews took the stories around them, and made them into their book. This is agreed upon. You don't even have to go further than the History Channel to hear this said.

Every story in the Old Testament comes from Mesopotamian in general/Sumerian tales, i.e. Epic of Gilgamesh. The Creation myth. The different heroes, etc.

Jesus Christ shares extremely close similarities with many mythological figures from up to 3,000 years before his existence. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm These also go for Krishna, Dionysus, and up to eight other figures who share very similar storylines.

Why is this? Why does the Bible seem so plagiarized from others?

Someone asked me to find a list of Biblical contradictions. I myself have found them in my reading of the Bible. However, I will provide lists given by people more qualified than myself.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html / http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/archiv...tml#good_to_all

http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra

Is jealousy and anger a bad thing? Becuase you are implying it is and for one to assume that jealousy and anger are not good , if the emotion is controled, is crazy just like it is wrong to think that all love is good.

And to here are some examples to prove my point.
1) Jealousy: I am jealouse for my wifes attention ,as she is mine, and lets say ,becuase she is a very attractive women, that another man was putting a move on her. Would I be wrong to go up to him and say "Woe now back off!"? No, it would not be wrong and I dare say my wife would love me more for standing up for her.

2) Anger: I see a group of people/one person trying to take advantage of another person who can not defend themselves. Would I be justified in my anger? Yes, becuase an injustice is being done and the one who is being taken advantage of would be thankful for the help.

3) All love is good: That is a myth and let me show you how. A women wants to be accepted, wants to be loved so, she is not jeoluse of her body and does not get angry when a man mis-treats her so she gives herself away for the emotion of love ,so she can fill needed, and soon relizes that she was used, feels dirty, is ashamed, maybe gets an std, gets pregnet and the man leaves her high and dry, has an abortion all becuase she felt love and all love must be good love. Gotta disagree with what you are implying JRowe in you first paragraph alone

And as far as Jesus being like anybody else. This is were you are greatly decieved and are in turn decieving others (trying anyway) Jesus is the only man who said He himself could forgive sins. To put it another way Jesus did not come and say listen to me and I will tell you how to earn salvation or how to work your way into heaven like the guys you are trying comparing Him to, but instead Jesus said I CAN FORGIVE SINS ( and a couple of em were ladies who fit example number 3). Jesus also said it is a free gift if you choose it; Jesus then went out and proved His divinity by healing the lame, making the blind see, etc etc, becuase Jesus cliam was not of man but of God. Becuase Jesus is God and he defeated death by not staying dead and all the guys you try to put Jesus up agianst, well they are dead . Plus to forgive sins one most be divine and sinless and if Jesus was sinning the Pharasies would have pointed that out becuase they were full of self-rightousness and Christianity would have ended right then becuase the Pharasies were the represenatives of the comman / well respected folk in Isreal at that time.


Who/What/When/Where race are you talking about that is so superior?

The Jews.

Jesus said he could forgive sins and do all that, yes, but that was written in a book by men. The gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were written between 65 and 90 AD. This means that if there were actual men by those names with Jesus, they could not have written the books.

St. Irenaeus was the one who decided which gospels to include.

The stories could easily have been largely plagiarized.

Also, there is no actual proof of Jesus ever having existed. Of the 50 or more notable historians in the area at the time, only four actually make any reference to a figure like Jesus. Three of them only mention the name "Chrestus" or "Christ", which was a title, not a name, that was not uncommon to the time. The other is Josephus, which has long been discredited as a bad source.

I am not trying to deceive anyone. And don't quote Revelations to me, I have read it many times and studied it. What Revelations does by saying many will be deceived is exactly like Barack Obama saying "Things will get worse before they get better!" He is making sure that no one will question the things he does, even when they are very questionable. By writing that into the Bible, people who say things against it are labeled as blasphemers and antichrists.

Just some more food for thought on Jesus and the accuraccy of The Bible.
Examine the prophecies yourself, and calculate the probability of one man fulfilling just a handful of the most specific ones, and you’ll be amazed.

“Jesus said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’” Luke 24:44 (NIV)

The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!

• Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
• A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
• Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
• Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
• Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
• Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
• Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
• Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
• Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
• Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
• Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
• Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
• Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
• Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
• Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
• Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:
  1. rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
  2. betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
  3. sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
  4. silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
  5. being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
  6. beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
  7. spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
  8. piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
  9. being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
  10. praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
  11. piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
  12. given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
  13. no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
  14. buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
  15. casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)

Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)

Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)

Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

-----
Messianic Prophecy - What Are The Odds of Fulfillment Without God?
Messianic Prophecy is so powerful because of the statistical odds that one man would fulfill every single one of them. If we just analyze seven of the more specific prophecies in the Old Testament, that were later fulfilled in the Person of Jesus Christ, we are stunned by the statistical impossibility of such an historical reality. As an illustration, we have inserted some conservative "odds" alongside seven established prophecies. Please feel free to propose your own prophecies and your own odds - the dramatic point will still be made!

Messianic Prophecy - The Challenge
Messianic prophecy is phenomenal evidence that sets the Bible apart from the other "holy books." We strongly encourage you to read the Old Testament prophecies and the New Testament fulfillments on the previous page. Better yet, get a Jewish Tanakh (the Hebrew scripture read in the Jewish synagogues) and read the Messianic prophecies from there. It is dramatic, eye-opening and potentially life-changing!

http://www.allabouttruth.org/messianic-prophecy-2.htm


And if anyone wants some real good reasons on why The Bible is true here is a guy who used to be an athiest Lee Strobel that is now a follower of Jesus Christ. http://www.leestrobel.com/index.html
Strobels websight can answer a lot of question in case you are wondering or maybe even doubting about something.

We have no proof Jesus existed. It is very easy to read the Old Testament and copy what it said to make Jesus the Messiah.

In fact, there is a verse that literally says, I believe after Jesus rode the ###### into town "in order to make the prophecy true".

Question, if Joseph was of the line of David, and it is a virgin birth, how is Jesus of the line of David? Also, Matthew and Luke contradict each other many times regarding Jesus' actual birth and details surrounding it, each of them seeming to be trying to make different prophecies work.

And thanks for the notes, but could you respond to some of my statements?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1304954/posts
if anyone wants to see what the Historians of Jesus time said about Him and Christianity

To God Be The Glory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth (Do not criticize the wikipedia link. Look at sources. It's convenient.)

The idea that 500 people saw Christ is completely unverifiable and a bit ridiculous in context of the time. And do we have any documentation from any of those people?

The teachings of Jesus are extremely basic, simplistic, almost to the point of obvious moralistic philosophies. The New Testament is a completely different work from the primitive Old Testament. It seems that most of the ideas of Christ come straight from simplified Eastern Philosophy at the time.

Do you believe Christ and God are the same being? If so, that means God sacrificed himself to himself. If you don't believe that, then you contradict four or five verses that directly say that.

The earliest Gospel writing is known to be 70 AD, Mark, yet some debate that it could have been almost 170AD.

These were fiction writers. The Bible can say all it wants, but it is primarily a book fraught with human error, and human stories, in order to fill the primitive human mind with wonder and comfort.

...and a rebuttal to all of your alledged contradictions....the atheist won't believe them, but he doesn't believe anyway....however, those of the faith will be strengthened as you read them.....there is a scriptural answer to all of his so-called contradictions on this site....


http://www.apologeticspress.com/allegeddiscrepancies/

Here is your answer from God, Himself, atheist....

Job 38 and 39:

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
2"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
4"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8"Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11and said, 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?

12"Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14It is changed like clay under the seal,
and its features stand out like a garment.
15From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.

16"Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.

19"Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!

22"Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
24What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?

25"Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain
and a way for the thunderbolt,
26to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man,
27to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground sprout with grass?

28"Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?
30The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.

31"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion?
32Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?

34"Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?
35Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go
and say to you, 'Here we are'?
36Who has put wisdom in the inward parts
or given understanding to the mind?
37Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
38when the dust runs into a mass
and the clods stick fast together?

39"Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in their thicket?
41Who provides for the raven its prey,
when its young ones cry to God for help,
and wander about for lack of food?


1"Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you observe the calving of the does?
2Can you number the months that they fulfill,
and do you know the time when they give birth,
3when they crouch, bring forth their offspring,
and are delivered of their young?
4Their young ones become strong; they grow up in the open;
they go out and do not return to them.

5"Who has let the wild donkey go free?
Who has loosed the bonds of the swift donkey,
6to whom I have given the arid plain for his home
and the salt land for his dwelling place?
7He scorns the tumult of the city;
he hears not the shouts of the driver.
8He ranges the mountains as his pasture,
and he searches after every green thing.

9"Is the wild ox willing to serve you?
Will he spend the night at your manger?
10Can you bind him in the furrow with ropes,
or will he harrow the valleys after you?
11Will you depend on him because his strength is great,
and will you leave to him your labor?
12Do you have faith in him that he will return your grain
and gather it to your threshing floor?

13"The wings of the ostrich wave proudly,
but are they the pinions and plumage of love?
14For she leaves her eggs to the earth
and lets them be warmed on the ground,
15forgetting that a foot may crush them
and that the wild beast may trample them.
16She deals cruelly with her young, as if they were not hers;
though her labor be in vain, yet she has no fear,
17because God has made her forget wisdom
and given her no share in understanding.
18When she rouses herself to flee,
she laughs at the horse and his rider.

19"Do you give the horse his might?
Do you clothe his neck with a mane?
20Do you make him leap like the locust?
His majestic snorting is terrifying.
21He paws in the valley and exults in his strength;
he goes out to meet the weapons.
22He laughs at fear and is not dismayed;
he does not turn back from the sword.
23Upon him rattle the quiver,
the flashing spear, and the javelin.
24With fierceness and rage he swallows the ground;
he cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
25When the trumpet sounds, he says 'Aha!'
He smells the battle from afar,
the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.

26"Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars
and spreads his wings toward the south?
27Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up
and makes his nest on high?
28On the rock he dwells and makes his home,
on the rocky crag and stronghold.
29From there he spies out the prey;
his eyes behold it from far away.
30His young ones suck up blood,
and where the slain are, there is he."

...and as for your allegation that the Bible plagarizes from other sources....Most of the events in the Bible happened to all people BEFORE their histories were written....THEY are just retelling the events that was handed down...the Bible, being the inspired Word of God, contains the real, unadulterated recordings of the events......

Evidences of a worldwide flood can be found in more than 270 flood stories and historic records found in many parts of the world. Following is just one of these stories:

Found in the histories of the Toltec Indians of ancient Mexico is a story of the first world that lasted 1,716 years and was destroyed by a great flood that covered even the highest mountains. Their story tells of a few men who escaped the destruction in a "toptlipetlocali," which means a closed chest. Following the great flood, these men began to multiply and built a very high "zacuali," or great tower, to provide a safe place if the world were destroyed again. However, the languages became confused, so different language groups wandered to other parts of the world.

The Toltecs claim they started as a family of seven friends and their wives who spoke the same language. They crossed great waters, lived in caves, and wandered 104 years till they came to Hue Hue Tlapalan (southern Mexico). The story reports that this was 520 years after the great flood. Source: Dinosaurs by Design

Actually, there are up to 517 stories, the oldest of which concerning the ancient world tree. I know a great deal about flood myths. I was actually reading a book on ancient cultural tales this morning.



I'm sorry, what? Have you totally ignored everything I've said, just so you can reiterate the same points that I've already commented on?

The Bible was written by man. It is a book. Proving the Bible with the Bible is absurd. It's like telling me Harry Potter is actually a real person because he is in a book, and he is really a wizard because it says many times in the book that he is. You may believe it is divinely inspired, but I don't. Quoting huge sections as if they are a magical panacea has no effect on someone who sees it as something written by people.

Your "rebuttal" to my "alleged contradictions" don't seem to do anything but try and appeal to emotion and spirituality, rather than factual basis. They quote more areas of the Bible to try and prove it. This is not a legitimate way of doing things. Also, they seem to try to blur over the edges and fold down spots that stick up, so to speak, to calm the doubtful mind.

I choose to believe things that make sense, not things written by nomadic tribes and ignorant agriculture-based peoples from thousands of years ago. Modern intelligence developed after the Renaissance.

Also, is "Dinosaurs by Design" anything like the ridiculous Answers in Genesis that shows huge meat-eating dinosaurs with razor sharp teeth eating plants? The one that shows dinosaurs with saddles on their backs?

Once again, my previous points are totally ignored so that you can grab onto one thing, quote the Bible over and over, and pretend you have won. And then, you spit out "atheist... atheist..." as if it is some horrible name to insult me with and once again ad hominem. Also, to try and strengthen your argument you KEEP using CAPS LOCK because you THINK it makes you seem CORRECT.

Stamos actually has a good point here. The bottomline - to be Christian, one must have faith. It's not "black and white" or "cut and dry." Even Christians fight among themselves as to what is necessary for salvation. Colmes will tell you that you must be baptized to enter Heaven. I happen to believe that God does not need man's help to secure your spot in Heaven.

...and so, back to the words of wisdom from our Lord, Savior, and King Jesus Christ....
" 6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you."

I will not give this atheist the time of day anymore...I would suggest that we Christians should cease to waste our time with this servant of Satan.....He is not interested in learning or changing, and he will reap what he has sown on the Day of Judgment....

We will continue to pray for you to see the light and come to obedience before you regret your unbelief for eternity......

HERE, HERE!