I always grew up marching corp (which our band director called a showband.) I love it, and although we marched military for one year (and it WAS fun), I just enjoyed corp better.

Anyone have an opinion on this? From what I've read some people seem to look down on corp bands vs. military bands. Also, I've heard some judges at marching comps lean towards military bands.

Anyone have any views on this?

Region 21 is probably the only place the judges would ever look down on corps bands. The rest of the state is strongly corps style and that is why a few years ago that it was a miracle for Westwood to do so well at the state competition as a military band (they were darn good that year). The judging of bands at Area and State favors the corps style. Region 21 is probably the largest group/area of mostly military style bands in the nation. You can look at the popularity of BOA and DCI throughout the country to see that military bands are of part of a bygone era.

Having marched military in HS and corps (not show, as there is a difference) at TCU there are merits for both. I personally think a band should march and not run around like a chicken with no head. Examples of types of bands would be:

Military: Texas A&M, Ohio State
Corps: TCU, UTA, and DCI
Show: Texas, Texas Tech or any of the variety of the park and bark college bands

Having said that, both styles are pretty hard to do well. Corps style is probably the easier of the two when done properly but the more physically demanding. I don't think I would have ever ended up in the emergency room with a torn sartoris muscle marching military like I did in 2004 at TCU (practicing on loose gravel, especially 4 to 5 runs, isn't the best idea).

The music in corps style marching is easier to perform more musically. Marches can be pretty hard for people to see/hear the musicality, even though it is definately there. It is also much harder to cover a mistake in military marching. You either do it right and with everybody else or you stick out like a sore thumb. Hitting sets and keeping the form is much easier in corps style marching. For smaller ensembles that just don't have the meatiness from their small numbers and don't posses players with the technical skill (woodwinds) that many marches often require it is much harder. Music can be more tailored to the ensemble for a corps style show. Marches are marches and there isn't much change to be had.

Au contraire Frog, while you make some wonderful points from both sides of the spectrum, I disagree with a few.

A) Region 21 collectively does not look down on corps bands. How many GOOD corps bands are there in eats Texas? It's a stretch to think of one (compared to other corps bands from around the state).

B) Bygone era? Not many bands continue traditional marching, but bygone era? There's much innovation currently happening within military bands and more to come.

C) I don't think one style is "more demanding" than the other. My band is marching a 7 minute show, non stop at 124-126 beats per minute. That's exhausting. You cannot fairly say one is more or less exhuasting than the other.

D) Where can we start about marches? Either you like them or you don't. Either you play them well and correctly, getting TONS of musicality out of them, or you don't. If anyone thinks a march lack in musicality, they need to learn how to play one correctly. Yeah, changing tempos like corps bands do does offer more variety in that respect, but do not underestimate how much can be learned or accomplished through a well played march.

[quote]Originally posted by DeBand
Au contraire Frog, while you make some wonderful points from both sides of the spectrum, I disagree with a few.

A) Region 21 collectively does not look down on corps bands. How many GOOD corps bands are there in eats Texas? It's a stretch to think of one (compared to other corps bands from around the state).[/quote]

Thus the reason they are looked down on in East Texas. None of the ones in East Texas are all that great so people tend to look down on it there.

[quote]B) Bygone era? Not many bands continue traditional marching, but bygone era? There's much innovation currently happening within military bands and more to come. [/quote]

I didn't say it was totally dead. It's comparable to baseball (traditional marching) as the American past time versus football (corps style marching), the game of present day America.

[quote]C) I don't think one style is "more demanding" than the other. My band is marching a 7 minute show, non stop at 124-126 beats per minute. That's exhausting. You cannot fairly say one is more or less exhuasting than the other.[/quote]

NOW FOR A RUN-ON SENTENCE:

From my experience in corps style at TCU (we rarely weren't moving during the entirety of the show) of going 140-180 for the opener, followed by 120-140 for the next few minutes (b/c double time marching for the slow music) and finished with another few minutes of 140-180 for the closer and adding in a large variety in the range of step size (almost marking time to ~3.75 steps to every 5 yards, plus, going forwards and backwards with my shoulders always always being square to the front sideline) corps style was much more physically demanding than any military routine I was ever a part of.

[quote]D) Where can we start about marches? Either you like them or you don't. Either you play them well and correctly, getting TONS of musicality out of them, or you don't. If anyone thinks a march lack in musicality, they need to learn how to play one correctly. Yeah, changing tempos like corps bands do does offer more variety in that respect, but do not underestimate how much can be learned or accomplished through a well played march. [/quote]

I think marches are very musical but usually aren't done musically. If you can get an ensemble or person to understand the musciality of a march, then they are probably very musical people. I'm a freak and love marches. My favorite American march composers are King and Fillmore.

NOW FOR A RUN-ON SENTENCE:

From my experience in corps style at TCU (we rarely weren't moving during the entirety of the show) of going 140-180 for the opener, followed by 120-140 for the next few minutes (b/c double time marching for the slow music) and finished with another few minutes of 140-180 for the closer and adding in a large variety in the range of step size (almost marking time to ~3.75 steps to every 5 yards, plus, going forwards and backwards with my shoulders always always being square to the front sideline) corps style was much more physically demanding than any military routine I was ever a part of.

I hate to tell ya buddy, but you are not the only person to have a high school military background going into a corps college band. I too have had the luxury of learning both styles. Additionally, I have had the luxury of watching college kids learn a new style in military and corps. Based on those experiences, the military people did a much better job at marching corps than the corps people did at marching military.
Out of respect for both styles, I assert once again than one is not more exhausting than the other. If you marched an easier military drill in high school and a harder corps drill in college, that's not a strong basis of comparison to say corps is more exhausting.
You also failed to address the fact the some military bands don't stop. Longview HS does not halt during their their either, which is over 7 and half minutes. The NON STOP part makes for quite an exertion of energy and effort.
Regardless though, if you do your style well, everyone is gonna be tired.
As far as your injury goes, good effort on your part. But proper technique of traversing, marching forward or backward, flanking, rear marching or countermarching, etc will prevent injury. If you watch Pittsburg HS march, I am surprised that they don't shatter their knees or throw their shoulders out of socket. But executing maneuvers properly will for the most part prevent such injuries.

Opps, almost forgot....there are people in east texas who don't have much respect for corps. But there are probably more folks outside of etx who shun the military style. If you ask the more intelligent musicians in etx what they think of corps bands, most will tell you that they enjoy a good corps band. I'm not sure if that sediment is returned to military bands in a reverse situation.:hmmm:

DeBand, you wouldn't happen to be Nick would you? Just curious. I am a bit biased, coming from the Longview band, but I enjoy a GOOD, well-done, corps show. I still like the traditional military bands, but again they have to be good. The music has to be done well, and it can't be ear-splitting. Longview, this year, has some of the best musicality (if that makes sense) that I've heard in a long time, even when I was there. We did good, but they are just amazing this year.

If you want to see how NOT to do a corps band, look at Dallas Carter's band. This year, when they were at Lobo Stadium, everyone loved their "show" but to me the music was terrible. My ears were screaming from it. It sounded like their instruments were begging for mercy. To me, they were just "blowing and going". And, the judges in Region 20 agreed this past Saturday, giving them 3-4-4.

I used to think Lee was a good Corps band, but then I saw some of the Metroplex schools at Area last time Longview went. There are some good Corps bands out there, but you have to be REALLY good to truly impress me. But, then again I'm just a military junkie.

IMHO, the only way to truly appreciate either style is to march it...I hated corps until I started it...Now I really don't have a favorite between the two. I love both.

I marched corp and prefer to watch large corp bands. I remember in the 1980's when John Tyler was the only corp band in East Texas. At the local marching contest they received two and threes and at the state competition they received top scores winning over most of the Dallas and Houston bands. The band marched 150 members and spread out from 30 to 30 yard line. It was a great show that very few East Texans appreciated. It seems John Tyler was a few years ahead of their time.

Military bands perform as one unit. Corp bands have several different shows going on at the same time.

My daughter marches in a 150 member military band. It is a great band and the director has incorprated entertaining diagrams.

I prefer small bands stay military and large bands corp.

Just my opinion!
:guitar:

Some large bands can do very well in the military style.....like Nacogdoches, Longview, Lufkin, and Lindale to name only a few. It's in how the drill is designed, and how the music is performed that makes or breaks a military band, IMO.

And, IMO, JT has become laughable at times during their drills. Last year though, they were very impressive, to me, and I think they deserved a 1 at UIL. They got 2's though.

RiderDrumMajor... I'm dissappointed in you. I'm so glad you have an appreciation for both styles now, but I can't believe you no longer have a favorite. Don't even think about heading to the metroplex to teach one of those prissy bands!!! LOL!!!

lol..i like 'em both...it makes me more versatile, what can I say?

Military is better, but then again the core band i've seen that was good is canton.

I was in the Marshall band, so I'm partial to corps. But I love a great military band. I always loved watching Longview and Nacogdoches, who I thought were the best military bands in the region.

Region 21 is TOUGH on corps bands. Marshall always seemed to pull out a I at contest, but not all the other corps bands were as lucky. I saw Tyler Lee get ROBBED a few times down at SFA for drills that looked and sounded MUCH better than some of the other military bands there.

I never was a JT fans.... they got III's when I would have given them a II. But I've never seen them give a division I performance. BUT... I haven't seem them in 2-3 years.

Getting aligned into region 4 by the UIL was the best thing to ever happen to Marshall. Marshall went from being 1 of only 2 corps bands in a region (21) to a region that's almost exclusively corps.

Region 4 has Marshall, Texas High, Sulphur Springs, Paris, North Lamar, Denison, Mount Pleasant...all off the top of my head that are corps. Seems like to me Kilgore and Pine Tree were the only military bands there in 4A. There arent any 5A schools in region 4.

It's a great contest if you like corps bands. It's Wednesday in Mount Pleasant. No idea what the schedule is. But I'll be there to catch them.

Good luck to everyone.

Best wishes to my alma mater Marshall...... BIG RED PRIDE!

Robert E. Lee had a great show and received top score.

John Tyler had a great show Saturday. Errors were very small and judges picked them apart.

Both bands were very impressive!

From an elder perspective: I was in a corps band way back in the (gasp) 70s and in another state (Mississippi). And I grew up corps so it's my favorite. My problem with military is that it's almost impossible to hear the music. Now, grant it, my daughter marches at a 2A school so there aren't a lot of musicians on the field, and some of them have taken their helmet and shoulder pads off to march, but even the bigger schools just loose their sound as they go north and south. Also, I'm not a fan of batoon twirling, I love to see flags and rifles being used.

Thanks for hearing my thoughts.

If you believe that MSU, you need to come to NAMMB on November 4th in Longview, if you're close. You will see that Longview not only sounds good going North-South (endzone to endzone), but East-West (Sideline to sideline, even with their backs to the crowd). And you can hear EVERY section. From the flutes/clarinets, to the french horns, trumpets, trombones, to the tubas. If you watch Longview, they will change your mind about military bands. NAMMB is ALL military bands, and there should be some good ones there. And, the baton twirling won't be done during the performances at NAMMB, that is just for halftime at the games.

http://www.uilforms.com/regions/4/SCHEDULE...edule-Oct25.pdf Region 4 3A/4A schedule for October 25th.

Pittsburg, Gilmer, Gladewater, Spring Hill, Sabine, White Oak, Kilgore, and Pine Tree are the military bands I can think of off the top of my head, unless some bands have changed since I last saw a Region 4 contest.

http://www.nammb.org/NAMMB/Home/Home_files...0Roster-1_1.pdf Here's a complete list of known hs military bands. Majority are in Texas, but there are a few outside of Texas

To put in my info on this,

Before going to college at TJC and entering into a corps band, i had known nothing but military bands here in east texas. I went to henderson where we almost turned corps but the director left the school before the job was done (meggs).

I know both styles and their are pros and cons with each.

With Corps you have to know your sets and be confident with your music. Especially if you are part of a small corps band because there is no where to hide. Individual members are thrust into the spotlight at any moment so it promotes confidence. Also with corps, there is more room for originality. The library of music is ulimited with corps bands as you can play any style from recent styles to more classical music.

With military you are limited to a few marches. There are some great military marches that you really just can't play on the field. I know in my years marching Region 21 Contest, I listened to the same piece of music 3 or 4 times a contest. As for teaching, yes it allows for younger musicians to grow and gain confidence, most don't even play as being afraid to miss a turn which could destroy and entire show so some of the sound gets lost. Also at stadiums like SFA's Homer Bryce, when facing away from the home stands the sound is bounced off the visitors stands and then is fed to the audience in somewhat of a clutter, not so with corps.

In the case of changing from style to style I believe that is on a case by case basis. i've seen corps musicians adapt easily to military and vice versa.

It may seem that i favor corps, but i enjoy both. there is so much more that can go wrong with military. And corps is so versitile.

Along with that, there are 3 letters that will end the argument of what is better military or corps. those letters are, DCI, Drum Corps International. It is the most intense marching that combines musicality, athleticism, punctuality and companionship.

Go YouTube DCI and you will find marching groups by names: Blue Devils, Blue Coats, Carolina Crown, Cavaliers, Cadets, and Phantom Regiment and you will be blown away. At TJC we have members in the band that have or are members of the Blue Coats, Cavaliers, and our sousaphone section leader is also the section leader of the Contra Bass section of Phantom Regiment.


This leads me to another problem i have with Region 21 and its band directors is the fact that they do not introduce Drum Corps International to their Sophmore and older students. Some of the best musicians miss out on this opportunity to play with groups of such prestige just because they are not of military background. Tyler Lee students are the only ones that I know that have heard of DCI prior to me joining TJC. And they took their opportunity to join at a young age the lower level groups of DCI before moving on the the "big name" groups of DCI.

I only hope that directors will open their eyes and inform their students of this opportunity so that it does not pass them by and they regret not being able to do it.

You are absolutely right. There are more corp people who show disrespect towards military bands and their style than vice versa.

In 2006 at the 3A State Marching Contest I can remember being disgusted by the people sitting behind me while Pittsburg H.S. was performing. I thought they executed their drill and their music fantastically having seen them the week before at area. Anyway, these people behind me proceded to do a commentary on the entire show...as if they were doing commentary for a golf tournament. Not only were they extremely disrespectful but they were doing it so that people sitting around them could hear...thinking they could get some laughs. It got under my skin b/c like you I marched military in h.s. and corp in college and learned many valuable things from both. I currently teach corp now I still have a respect and appreciation for what the other side does.

Mr. Kaufman(former N.B.H.S.) director was sitting down the row from me and I am still suprised he didn't give them a piece of his mind.

Anyway, I would have thought that kind of classless act might happen at a invitational or pre-UIL contest but certainly not at the Texas State Marching Contest.

I know James Kaufman. He didn't give them a piece of his mind because #1 he's heard it all before - no sense in arguing with ignorant idiots, #2 he has class and is a true gentleman.

I, on the other hand, would have been in the big middle of them. That's why at contests I'm usually being "babysat" by Neil Grant, Randy Dawson, among others - that, or I'm "placed" in the press box.

Comparing the two is much like comparing apples to oranges. OK, the musical part HAS to be there for both, but that is where the similarities end. Which is better? That is in the mind of the individual. I don't believe one is better than the other, just different. One is not harder than the other, just different.

Now about the judges...Region 21...they need to get judges who don't look at the style of marching and judge what is taking place on the field. Teaching in programs that were rebuilding, I had many comments from judges saying what I needed to make the band better. DUH! Don't tell me what I need, I know that! Judge what the kids on the field did. It happened once on the concert stage when I had 28 kids that played their hearts out. It was by no means perfect, and they received a I-I-II. One of the judes that gave us a I told me later he gave it because he felt the kids were giving all they could give. It was a shot in the arm for that program...which a few years later placed 2nd at the state marching contest.

Having read this topic, I think I might be able to bring a little outside perspective into the discussion.

I am from Dallas origionally. I marched at a large 5A high school. We were a show/corps band. In the 4 years that I marched and all the contests I went to...not one time did I ever see a military band. It was just unheard of. I went to the Lake Highlands DCI competitions never saw it, never saw it in high school. Upon graduation, I went to Baylor, and also marched. I was a member of the BUGWB (Baylor University Golden Wave Band) for 5 years. The only military band I saw, were those chuckle heads down highway 6.

Having said all that...Military is just a product of the region, in my humble opinion. As far as I know, this discussion about which is better, only matters if you live in east Texas. Other than that, Military is non-existant. Even while I was at Baylor, I had no idea that high schools even marched that style. Baylor hosts the state marching competetion every year. It alternates between 5A/3A, and 4A/2A. Never once saw military. I didn't watch every band, but of the ones I saw, for sure the larger bands, not one did military. When I moved to east Texas though, I went to the UIL competition and was shocked to see a bunch of kids on the field marching in straight lines back and forth across the field. I was there for 10 min, got bored out of my mind, and left. Get out of east Texas and military style is not there.

Question: Do they have some sort of DCI style competition for military band? If they do, I've never heard of it.

No but even if the students come from military marching bands, their directors should atleast bring up the opportunity to do DCI, you know?

Most military directors are so ANTI-corps that nothing is ever mentioned to their students and they miss out on something amazing.

does anyone agree?

No more anti-corps than corps directors are anti-military. It's all personal taste. Corps shows can be just as boring - same music - same solos - flags and rifles - YAWN... as military shows. If there's originality in either show, that's when it's great! My daughter marched military all through high school and corps in college. She said corps was so much easier. When they tried to do a military show one year, the corps students couldn't "get" it. They really struggled with precision marching and griped the entire time. It takes a lot of discipline to march that style well - just as it does with the better corps bands. Any band - regardless of its marching style - should have the discipline and commitment to be great. I'm sick of watching mediocre bands at contest, whether they are military or corps.

Baylor hasn't hosted the TSMC in several years. Ever since it rained that one year and several kids slipped and fell it has been in San Antonio in the AlamoDome.

Sorry to dissagree with you but the military band has been around much longer than the corps bands. Some have been doing it for years, but there was a time when most all bands marched military. If you are bored while watching a military band, then you are not paying attention. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

Hmmmm, how long ago was that? I know that we would march an exibition peformance between while the judges would tally the scores. I marched from 98-2003. Has it been moved since? I honestly don't know....

Now I never said which was older. All i said was that I had never done it, hadn't seen it till I got out here, and I thought it was boring....just my opinion. I know the history of marching band...you don't need to remind me of that, give me a break. I'm just saying that Military marching is a regional thing now. You don't see it anywhere near dallas and you don't have an arguement about which is better, bc no one even sees military.

Why do we even need to have a discussion as to "which is better" or "this vs. that"?

Ummm, that was the topic of this thread Johnny.... What's your opinion?

yes, i know the topic of the thread. but my question to you is why do we need to have a "which is better"? it is all opinion...you sound like you may have a hidden agenda to put the military people in their place...

i like both...they are different...neither is better than the other.

ha ha. not at all. I was just saying that in east texas, military is dominant. Everyone out here says corps? Who does that? It's just the opposite in Dallas and the large cities. I was just putting in my two cents and offering a different perspective.

One can go on and on and on about which is better....yada yada yada...

Maybe it is a regional thing. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people putting down one over the other, especially when they have never tried it. And that goes for both sides. You sit in the stands next to folks who have never marched corps and are die hard military, and they don't understand the corps stuff either.

I agree with this. This is why i think that it is best for students to get a little taste of both. Military in high school/corp in college.

It is also really great for kids to go to a school (like TTU/UT) that march both styles. The Goin' Band from Raiderland marches military in the pre-game and corps at halftime. Sometimes they switch the order, but they almost always do both. I personally think that is a really great way to expose everyone to both styles. The most amazing thing is that there are absolutely NO military high school bands in West Texas. It is surprising that the TTU band continues this. But I personally really like it.

In the early 1980's many people (REL fans) made in fun of John Tyler for marching corp. Prof Williams and John Samples introduced a new style to many people. The band marched about 160 and attended marching contest in Dallas/Ft. Worth area. The band aways attended the batte of the bands at the cotton bowl during the state fair.

It is funny how things change!


Corp and miitary bands are different. Different is not right or wrong - it is different.

Work hard on and off the field.

If the band doesn't sound good no one will care if the band is corp or military.

That's a regional thing as well, at least I think it is...I do remember a small school north of Abilene, Munday HS, the BD at the time was Rodney Bennett...most every year I saw his band, he put a military drill in the middle of his show...maybe not a whole march, maybe just one strain, but definate military style in the middle of a corps show. They were pretty consistant Div. I at that time (mid 1980's).

I would love to see that! Our band here is military but tends to put something corps in it each year. Some call that 'soft corps'

I wish that more high schools would teach military style marching. It is a link to the past, a peice of our nation's heritage.

While some find it boring, I find it a refreshing change from some of the 20th century stuff that is being written and played. Give me a Sousa or a King march any day over the contemporary music.

If you like military style marching, Bullard is the place fot you. Where I went to school corp was boss.
The kids here want to go corp style so bad it's not even funny. Bands like Canton roll in here and do their thing, our kids just drool.

If you like military style marching, Bullard is the place fot you. Where I went to school corp was boss.
The kids here want to go corp style so bad it's not even funny. Bands like Canton roll in here and do their thing, our kids just drool.

The topic of Military vs Corps style should not be perceived as objective, but subjective. There is no substantial argument in logic for which is better, only opinion, which is fair enough a question to pose.
Both styles can be made to appear done well or not by the band performing, so loyalty can be a heavy bias in one's opinion. Past experience is a big factor in one's preference. Let us look beyond the shallow-minded on both sides, and express honest opinions based on what WE like, instead of what we don't like or understand.
I grew up marching corps style in High School. Small band, big sound. We had to compete with the big boys in our state, so our playing had to be there. In college, corps styl e, and about 200-225 on the field. We played in some big SEC stadiums, and the Superdome, and got standing O's. I grew up watching DCI, and my son tried out for a corps this year. His school marches corps. My bias is towards corps, as a by product of my environment. I just enjoy it.

As an East Texas transplant, I had never seen much Military . I have since grown quite interested in it as an art form, as it has it's own intricate style and precision. Watch the AGGIES band, and really watch what is happening. I have seen locals like New Boston, DeKalb, and Pittsburg. They blow me away. Last year at SFA regionals Pittsburg had the crowd on it's feet, pumped up as much as any DCI crowd. New Boston and Dekalb were both Finalists this year in State 2A.
Hats off to any band which learns it's craft, and performs it at the top level, military or corps. I now appreciate a good band, regardless of style.
I would hope that both points of view, judges included, can step away from their bias during a performance, and enjoy a quality show for what it is...
The kids leaving their hearts on the field, sweat pouring down their necks like 100 summer days, out of breath as if they had run a mile, and the roar of hundreds of fans giving them the cheers that made it worth every minute.

Nice post Futfan, that is what I was trying to say last week, but you just said it better...haha.

futfan....there is someone who gets it!

Growing up in Pittsburg I never saw a corp band until I was actually at our first game..
It was so weird to see after like only seeing military my whole life.
I don't hate it but prefer military because of the style and sharpness.
Good Old Pittsburg Pride

In the fall isn't it called "marching season"? Bands need to march! The best way to do that is military style. One young relative of mine is in a band here and every Friday night they get their butts kicked by bands that actually march. All her band does is put out about 18 flag girls and then let them do their thing while the rest of the band plays (badly).
Good bands have movement all over the field.

A good corps band will have movement all over the field...from the color guard to the drumline to the pit to the horns and back again. Don't assume that the only ones to "march" are military bands.

l