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Lufkin admits to turning in faulty numbers to UIL


Sportsfanatic1

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Part of the problem is Lufkin did not count the students at the Stubblefield Learning Center. The Stubblefield location did not just come about; been around for years. So why did they not count those students in 2013 and then again in 2015 before they realized their error? Nothing changed that I am aware of. I would guess that Diboll counted their students there as well as Lufkin Hudson (I think they send students there as well). Huntington has been counting their Pride school students as years.

 

I know KTRE was trying to find out more info regarding this and I believe no one could come up to the 2088 students that Lufkin originally report. It was not just the Stubblefield students (and the other alternative school location that I can't remember) that were missing.

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We can all say what we want about this. But I wonder how much of this goes on state wide. Especially in the Dallas and Houston inter city areas?

 

As for as that goes, the small rule towns also.

 

Livingston HS got caught this year and got much of nothing for doing it. EXCEPT put in a brutal district for travel and playing.

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I think Livingston turned themselves in. I may be wrong on that but at least it was discovered before games had been played. Lufkin played almost all their games and events for 2 years except maybe a couple of baseball games. Got to be some form of strong penalty in my opinion otherwise it will continue.

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PackAttack, let me say I am not presuming anything criminal . . . I'm sorry if it sounded that way. But "negligence is no excuse" is my point, especially since this happened twice with Lufkin's administration. That's my whole reason (deductive reasoning?) that makes this look bad -- perhaps intentional (?) Maybe it was just one person and they blew it . . . I hope that is ALL it is . . . a bad mistake that needs to be addressed by the UIL and Lufkin ISD.

 

My disagreement with Pack007 is that if it happens once, shame on you. If it happens twice, shame on me for not saying what it "looks like" and that is . . . someone may have (I said may have) done it on purpose to gain an advantage. They may not have, either, so your point is well taken that I shouldn't assume anyone did anything criminal. I get that.

 

To your point that other teams suffered because of this . . . yes, they did regardless of how Pack007 puts down Jacksonville down. Forget Jacksonville, it DID hurt other teams in contention in other sports for playoff spots. This is not just about football and basketball but so many other sports. I mean, Lufkin won a state championship in soccer in 2015 . . . great for the kids and well deserved. But you have to admit, there is a bit of a stain on it knowing Lufkin should not have been competing in 5A.

 

I think Lufkin is great town with great people with an amazing sports program. Again, for it to happen once is understandable . . . but to get caught with wrong numbers twice? That's what I was referring to as fishy and Lufkin ISD needs to be called to the carpet to see what happened. But you're right, I shouldn't assume anything criminal and I apologize.

 

Good luck to Lufkin next year!

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My two cents..... which equals zero......

 

 

Presumed guilt on the part of LISD is unfair not only to the good people that serve Lufkin, but their student athletes as well. This honestly could have been a clerical error; nothing more than perhaps a lack of knowledge in how the ADM is calculated. That may not excuse LISD from punishment, but it could lead to some leniency in the punishment of the district. I'm the type of person that believes we need all the facts first. I honestly don't see how/why LISD would see any real benefit from purposely reporting the wrong numbers. Is it possible it lead to some victories in the competition arena that the Panthers otherwise wouldn't have had? MAYBE. But we'll never know. It can't be undone and redone correctly. That's nothing more than a PRESUMED "perk" of playing down in the wrong classification.

 

I can't say I've kept up all that closely to how LP sports have done in 16-5A the last 2 seasons. But you can't assume they were going to dominate just because they were the largest school in the district. Look no further than 15-5A to see that to be true. I'm not knocking Longview AT ALL.... but overall.... Longview sports struggled in 15-5A the last 2 seasons. They didn't dominate simply because they were the largest school in the district. So again.... that would be a dangerous gamble by Lufkin ISD in the light of possibly getting caught.

 

 

IMHO......There were more presumed negatives to their being in 5A Vs. 6A: lower ticket sales in just about every sport........More travel expenses in every sport. Having to drive to Ennis.... and Corsicana in all sports had to be very expensive. I would think the 6A district south would have been cheaper on expenses. I could be wrong.

 

Just seems like a HUGE gamble on the part of LISD if it was intentional. I can't think it would be seen as worth it by the powers that be. Especially for possible repercussions of getting caught.

 

HOWEVER.....there is another side of the coin....

 

Presumed innocence of LISD is unfair not to all the other members of 16-5A, but any teams they eliminated in the playoffs of each sport. Particularly when there is a state championship involved in soccer, but also the success of their baseball and softball teams. And golf too if I recall correctly.

 

If LISD did indeed purposely lie, then every sport LP qualified for was a playoff spot that that belonged to an another member of 16-5A. Every sport LP advanced in the playoffs was a spot that theoretically belonged to whomever was the #5 team in that district. Then you get into the teams they beat in the playoffs. That all adds up to potential loss playoff revenue and potential playoff success to more teams/sports you can count over the course of 2 years. Sure.... it's grabs the eye when you see LP playing schools half their size (Lindale) knowing they never should have been playing them. That's obviously unfair. If it's deemed fair what Lufkin (allegedly) did.... then why do we bother with making classifications at all? The reason for classification and realignment is to make the level of competition as equitable as possible.

 

Anyone that's been on SDC long enough knows I'm no fan of the UIL. But they are in a really TOUGH spot. A slap on the wrist to LISD could lead to other schools to (allegedly) do the same to drop down. But..... if they really lay the smack down on LISD.... I feel bad for the student athletes who are punished for something they had NOTHING to do with. They simply lined up and faced whatever team they had across from them..... no matter if it was Lindale and Jacksonville.... or if it had been The Woodlands and Klein Oak. The student athletes aren't the ones doing the calculations.

 

All that to say..... presumed innocence.... and presumed guilt are both faulty ways to look at this. Until more information is known.... people must remain neutral on it.

 

And no matter what decision is made.. punishment or no punishment for LISD...... there are student athletes that ultimately will be "wronged" in all of this. Either LP students could be stripped of victories when they did nothing wrong..... or each team to loss to LP in district play or the playoffs will always know they never should have been playing them.

 

Bad situation.

 

And all that to say..... it's JMHO.....

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I honestly don't see how/why LISD would see any real benefit from purposely reporting the wrong numbers. Is it possible it lead to some victories in the competition arena that the Panthers otherwise wouldn't have had? MAYBE. But we'll never know. It can't be undone and redone correctly. That's nothing more than a PRESUMED "perk" of playing down in the wrong classification.

 

I can't say I've kept up all that closely to how LP sports have done in 16-5A the last 2 seasons. But you can't assume they were going to dominate just because they were the largest school in the district. Look no further than 15-5A to see that to be true. I'm not knocking Longview AT ALL.... but overall.... Longview sports struggled in 15-5A the last 2 seasons. They didn't dominate simply because they were the largest school in the district. So again.... that would be a dangerous gamble by Lufkin ISD in the light of possibly getting caught.

 

 

IMHO......There were more presumed negatives to their being in 5A Vs. 6A: lower ticket sales in just about every sport........More travel expenses in every sport. Having to drive to Ennis.... and Corsicana in all sports had to be very expensive. I would think the 6A district south would have been cheaper on expenses. I could be wrong.

 

Just seems like a HUGE gamble on the part of LISD if it was intentional. I can't think it would be seen as worth it by the powers that be. Especially for possible repercussions.

As usual, good post Mav. Although it doesn't make sense to me for why we would do this on purpose, I could understand why other schools in the district would be upset, if it was determined that it was done intentionally by someone on staff at LISD. Like PA said, this whole thing has been very embarrassing. I don't only feel for the kids and coaches that have worked their you know what off the last two years, but also the staff at the administration building that had absolutely nothing to do with all of this. Dealing with this bs in town, online and also a possible punishment from the UIL, has to be tough for them. I don't know what happened, but I'm hoping it was a mistake. Just like some of the reasons you've stated above, I can't think of any valid reasons for why someone would do this on purpose considering all of the risks factors that could potentially destroy a program, the respect we've earned over the years and everything that Outlaw built imo, regardless of what type of success that we had in 5A. That would be a huge gamble. Yes, I can imagine other programs that haven't won anything ever before doing it, but definitely not us. Again, It just doesn't make sense to me. I'm hoping with a new Administrator dealing with her first cutoff/snapshot year in Lufkin and having an assistant administrator retiring during that particular time, also including people saying we didn't have to count those kids in the past were the reasons for that crucial mistake. I'm not sure where Matt is getting that second time stuff from. All I can remember is that Matt Stepp and a few others online had different enrollment numbers that they received from the coaches, but who says those were the numbers that were given to the UIL? Unless you heard it from the individuals working at the UIL, you don't know if it's true or not.
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As usual, good post Mav. Although it doesn't make sense to me for why we would do this on purpose, I could understand why other schools in the district would be upset, if it was determined that it was done intentionally by someone on staff at LISD. Like PA said, this whole thing has been very embarrassing. I don't only feel for the kids and coaches that have worked their you know what off the last two years, but also the staff at the administration building that had absolutely nothing to do with all of this. Dealing with this bs in town, online and also a possible punishment from the UIL, has to be tough for them. I don't know what happened, but I'm hoping it was a mistake. Just like some of the reasons you've stated above, I can't think of any valid reasons for why someone would do this on purpose considering all of the risks factors that could potentially destroy a program, the respect we've earned over the years and everything that Outlaw built imo, regardless of what type of success that we had in 5A. That would be a huge gamble. Yes, I can imagine other programs that haven't won anything ever before doing it, but definitely not us. Again, It just doesn't make sense to me. I'm hoping with a new Administrator dealing with her first cutoff/snapshot year in Lufkin and having an assistant administrator retiring during that particular time, also including people saying we didn't have to count those kids in the past were the reasons for that crucial mistake. I'm not sure where Matt is getting that second time stuff from. All I can remember is that Matt Stepp and a few others online had different enrollment numbers that they received from the coaches, but who says those were the numbers that were given to the UIL? Unless you heard it from the individuals working at the UIL, you don't know if it's true or not.

im not going to say they did it on purpose...but I think its naive to think that it wasn't possible. Think about it. Lufkin wouldn't been a state contender in 6a football the last couple of yrs. BUT...in 5a, they were. The problem is that they ran into Longview 2 yrs in a row in the first round. I think if Lufkin would have been on JT side of the bracket...they could have had deep runs in the playoffs the past 2 yrs. And lets be honest....Football is the only sport that matters. Heck I would bet most of the board didn't know they won state in Soccer. Football is king and the cash cow....so its very possible they could have done it on purpose to gain advantage in that sport. You had a legend coach pass, and your new coach is struggling a little....a move to 5a could have jump start the entire program again. Again, Im not saying it was done on purpose...but I would be foolish to think that isn't a possibility. .

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im not going to say they did it on purpose...but I think its naive to think that it wasn't possible. Think about it. Lufkin wouldn't been a state contender in 6a football the last couple of yrs. BUT...in 5a, they were. The problem is that they ran into Longview 2 yrs in a row in the first round. I think if Lufkin would have been on JT side of the bracket...they could have had deep runs in the playoffs the past 2 yrs. And lets be honest....Football is the only sport that matters. Heck I would bet most of the board didn't know they won state in Soccer. Football is king and the cash cow....so its very possible they could have done it on purpose to gain advantage in that sport. You had a legend coach pass, and your new coach is struggling a little....a move to 5a could have jump start the entire program again. Again, Im not saying it was done on purpose...but I would be foolish to think that isn't a possibility. .

Come on 99 lol. I think most of the board members were at the championship celebration for the soccer team though, so I'm guessing they do know(maybe you were being sarcastic). I do understand what you're getting at though and I agree somewhat that it could be a possibility. You never know what some people would do in this world. I just don't agree with it in this particular situation. Maybe I'm naive for thinking so, I don't know. I just think you're too focused on the financial part of it and ignoring the risks. I just don't think the benefits from the financial part of it (even with a long playoff run) outweigh the risks. Problems with the UIL and their six figures a year career being on the line, if it was proven they purposely gave out inaccurate enrollment figures to the UIL. I honestly don't even think our Superintendent and administrators at the time cared that much about football to make a decision like that. Like Mav said, you can't assume that we would make a run and do well in 5A anyways. We had lost the year before to Nac and if I remember correctly freakin Tyler Lee. Just doesn't sound right. If you're looking in from the outside, you could definitely look at it and say it's a possibility, but I honestly don't think those individuals would do that. Too many risks involved with that, because you usually get caught. I guess you never know though. I just don't believe it.
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Will agree that football is king...especially at Longview. I was like damn... track and baseball season still full swing and we already practicing for something played in the fall! As far as Lufkin "cheating to gain advantage"...I dunno.

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The problem Lufkin has is that perception is reality.

 

I've already stated my reasons for doubting why LISD would purposely try to deceive the UIL into making them 5A instead of 6A. The risk Vs. reward simply doesn't make sense.

 

BUT....... perception is a problem.

 

Before the 2014..... and also again before the 2016 alignment, SOME (not all, but a contingency) of Lufkin's fans were HOPING for the school to be aligned into 5A instead of 6A. There was an entire thread on the LP board as to the pros and cons of LHS being in 5A Vs. 6A. Some LP fans were disenchanted with their first round playoff struggles in 6A. Some of them felt the program would flourish in 5A (look at Longview in 08, 09, Marshall 04, 05, 09, John Tyler). There is no denying some LP fans thought the Panthers would be better off in 5A than 6A.

 

Unluckily for them they met Longview both times. Otherwise, I think they would have been correct. Esp this coming year in region III.

 

We saw the same talk this past winter. Some LP fans felt that if they were struggling in 5A..... they would struggle even more in 6A. They felt LP needed to remain in 5A to remain equally or more competitive than they would be in 6A.

 

Some LP fans can't deny there was at least a DESIRE by some to be.... and remain in 5A.

 

Question is..... was that the thought of someone (or several someones) in administration? Could someone within the district make the decision to deceive UIL? Lying to the UIL and breaking UIL rules isn't a new thing. So it's not outside the realm of possibility.

 

I say no they didn't..... for reasons I stated.

 

But the PERCEPTION is out there...... that (some) in LP wanted to be 5A. How far up the latter did that desire go?

 

Going to be hard to shake that perception.

 

Like I said..... no matter what decision UIL makes..... there are some student athletes that are going to get shafted. Question is.... will it be Lufkin kids that worked their tails off to win..... or will it be kids that worked their tails off and lost to a team they never should have been playing in the first place.

 

No win situation really

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The problem Lufkin has is that perception is reality.

 

I've already stated my reasons for doubting why LISD would purposely try to deceive the UIL into making them 5A instead of 6A. The risk Vs. reward simply doesn't make sense.

 

BUT....... perception is a problem.

 

Before the 2014..... and also again before the 2016 alignment, SOME (not all, but a contingency) of Lufkin's fans were HOPING for the school to be aligned into 5A instead of 6A. There was an entire thread on the LP board as to the pros and cons of LHS being in 5A Vs. 6A. Some LP fans were disenchanted with their first round playoff struggles in 6A. Some of them felt the program would flourish in 5A (look at Longview in 08, 09, Marshall 04, 05, 09, John Tyler). There is no denying some LP fans thought the Panthers would be better off in 5A than 6A.

 

Unluckily for them they met Longview both times. Otherwise, I think they would have been correct. Esp this coming year in region III.

 

We saw the same talk this past winter. Some LP fans felt that if they were struggling in 5A..... they would struggle even more in 6A. They felt LP needed to remain in 5A to remain equally or more competitive than they would be in 6A.

 

Some LP fans can't deny there was at least a DESIRE by some to be.... and remain in 5A.

 

Question is..... was that the thought of someone (or several someones) in administration? Could someone within the district make the decision to deceive UIL? Lying to the UIL and breaking UIL rules isn't a new thing. So it's not outside the realm of possibility.

 

I say no they didn't..... for reasons I stated.

 

But the PERCEPTION is out there...... that (some) in LP wanted to be 5A. How far up the latter did that desire go?

 

Going to be hard to shake that perception.

 

Like I said..... no matter what decision UIL makes..... there are some student athletes that are going to get shafted. Question is.... will it be Lufkin kids that worked their tails off to win..... or will it be kids that worked their tails off and lost to a team they never should have been playing in the first place.

 

No win situation really

+1

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Come on 99 lol. I think most of the board members were at the championship celebration for the soccer team though, so I'm guessing they do know(maybe you were being sarcastic). I do understand what you're getting at though and I agree somewhat that it could be a possibility. You never know what some people would do in this world. I just don't agree with it in this particular situation. Maybe I'm naive for thinking so, I don't know. I just think you're too focused on the financial part of it and ignoring the risks. I just don't think the benefits from the financial part of it (even with a long playoff run) outweigh the risks. Problems with the UIL and their six figures a year career being on the line, if it was proven they purposely gave out inaccurate enrollment figures to the UIL. I honestly don't even think our Superintendent and administrators at the time cared that much about football to make a decision like that. Like Mav said, you can't assume that we would make a run and do well in 5A anyways. We had lost the year before to Nac and if I remember correctly freakin Tyler Lee. Just doesn't sound right. If you're looking in from the outside, you could definitely look at it and say it's a possibility, but I honestly don't think those individuals would do that. Too many risks involved with that, because you usually get caught. I guess you never know though. I just don't believe it.

I was being sarcastic about the soccer...although I bet more people hear about winning in football than soccer. I couldn't tell you the other soccer champs in each class, but I can tell you the football champs. Either way, I feel bad for the kids.

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I've already had my say on this . . . and I can't say it any better than Mav has . . . but . . . in Texas, when you have a Mom plotting harm to another girl so her daughter will get cheerleader (remember that?) you can never assume what people will do or what goes through their minds . . . like Pack007 thinks about my mind . . . LOL!

 

BTW, I read the person who supposedly turned Lufkin in no longer works for the school district. Hmmmmm. Sour grapes?

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There you go making up stuff again. The snapshot numbers were entered by a person that no longer works there, which could be the administrator that retired last year. An anonymous letter was sent to KTRE and the UIL. You do know what anonymous means right?

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We saw the same talk this past winter. Some LP fans felt that if they were struggling in 5A..... they would struggle even more in 6A. They felt LP needed to remain in 5A to remain equally or more competitive than they would be in 6A.

 

I have a strong opinion that Lufkin would've missed the post season this past season if they were in 6A. I wouldn't even be going out on a limb to say they could've missed the past two seasons, the way that 2014 team somehow found a way to not hold onto leads and just let other teams hang around.

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Aww, Pack007, did I get under your skin or something? You're saying I'm making stuff up? Sounds like the administration is making stuff up . . . like attendance numbers.

 

You're just using semantics to attack what I said . . . you know what semantics means, right?

 

Someone anonymous did send it . .. doesn't that mean someone else knew about it, as in, more than just the person who turned in wrong numbers? I'm saying if that anonymous person is the same person who "retired" or whatever, it could be sour grapes.

 

I'll say it one more time Pack in case you missed it . . . I wish Lufkin well, they have a great program, and great people in the town. Geez.

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Definitely not under my skin. None of you work for the UIL, so your posts don't mean much. I'm just calling you out for your bs. I don't understand why you've wasted your time saying that you shouldn't assume things, when that's mostly what you and a few others are doing. Maybe it's ok in Jacksonville to post things without fact checking, I don't know. It just seems like the Lufkin administration and sports program have gotten under your skin with some of the posts you've made taking your little shots at them and making up lies. You haven't proven once that this has happened twice with the UIL, but you continue to post that in order to help your argument and I guess to influence others on here of wrongdoings by the Administration. You've also suggested that it was done on purpose, because "I guess they wanted to win pretty bad". Now you're going on and on about something that you've read, but you haven't shown any proof of it, even after being called out by me. So, yea you're making up stuff. None of us have any proof that this was done on purpose, so it shouldn't be suggested otherwise.

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Aaaaaaaand, you proved my point . . . about the skin thing. Newspaper articles, that's where I got my information. So.... making stuff up, lies, taking shots, etc...I don't think so. I already walked back the "on purpose" comment in previous posts, so get over it. You seem to lawyer up with "no evidence" and "why would we do that, I don't get it", blah, blah, blah. It happened twice, once in the 2015-16 term . . . busted for that . . . and then in this last 2016-17 alignment, Lufkin announced one number . . . and then oops, no, this is the number. I am calling that the 2nd time even though it wasn't UIL-related. You conveniently forgot that, I guess. Technically, it is a 2nd instance when someone didn't know how to count students.

 

And you're right . . . I really don't care if Lufkin ends up in the NFC East or District 99-6A.

 

Good luck, Pack007.

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