NATUREBOY98 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 6 hours ago, Monte1076 said: So what about what this guy says? http://godandscience.org/ Also, if the earth is flat, how do satellites actually orbit? And why do rockets and spacecraft take the trajectory they do in order to reach space? Why can't they just launch straight up perpendicularly to the earth? You believe everything you see on television? You believe all those photographs? CGI is pretty great. I could convince someone that came out of a 30 year coma that we had an alien robot invasion just by turning on a Transformer movie and say it’s a live action news feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirtFalcon Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, NATUREBOY98 said: I forgot. You have our Father on speed dial Kirt. My bad. I do take His word to be literal in meaning. You’ve read the creation story, I’m sure. A few things to contemplate with that. He created light before the sun. He created the earth before the sun. What were we orbiting? He just decide to give us a nudge after making the sun? You don’t have to believe, that’s your right. Don’t knock others who do though. The sun is not the only source of light in the universe ... the stars and other events causing friction produce light .... 1 John 1:5 says "God is light" .... thus no outside natural source is necessarily required for there to be light .... Edited July 22, 2020 by KirtFalcon yo mama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATUREBOY98 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 7 minutes ago, KirtFalcon said: The sun is not the only source of light in the universe ... the stars and other events causing friction produce light .... 1 John 1:5 says "God is light" .... thus no outside natural source is necessarily required required for there to be light .... He said the earth was formless and empty and that darkness covered the surface of the deep. He then said He spoke light into existence and separated it day and night. Those stars and other things causing friction that produce light, whatever that means, didn’t show up until He created them the 4th day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirtFalcon Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, NATUREBOY98 said: He said the earth was formless and empty and that darkness covered the surface of the deep. He then said He spoke light into existence and separated it day and night. Those stars and other things causing friction that produce light, whatever that means, didn’t show up until He created them the 4th day. There is no contradiction or error in what God said ... Separating day from night relates to the rotation of the earth ... When he spoke light into existence confirms 1 John 1:5 .... so again, light didn't have to wait for the creation of the sun .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATUREBOY98 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 10 minutes ago, KirtFalcon said: There is no contradiction or error in what God said ... Separating day from night relates to the rotation of the earth ... When he spoke light into existence confirms 1 John 1:5 .... so again, light didn't have to wait for the creation of the sun .... Did I say light had to come from the sun? No. I said God spoke it into existence. Read your Bible. You mentioned stars and other things that are sources of light. I just told you they showed up on day 4 with the sun. Yes God the Father is pure light. Darkness does not come near Him. He is no light bearer. He is the light and the truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirtFalcon Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 3 hours ago, NATUREBOY98 said: Did I say light had to come from the sun? No. I said God spoke it into existence. Read your Bible. You mentioned stars and other things that are sources of light. I just told you they showed up on day 4 with the sun. Yes God the Father is pure light. Darkness does not come near Him. He is no light bearer. He is the light and the truth. You and your finite wisdom seem to be questioning God's infinite wisdom and the bible .... I didn't say anything about God not speaking light into existence and I don't know why you seem to have a problem with the sequence of events in Genesis if you believe that God is light ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATUREBOY98 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 48 minutes ago, KirtFalcon said: You and your finite wisdom seem to be questioning God's infinite wisdom and the bible .... I didn't say anything about God not speaking light into existence and I don't know why you seem to have a problem with the sequence of events in Genesis if you believe that God is light ... I don’t have a problem with the sequence of events. In fact, I take them to be literal. I do not question my Father in anything. I do question men/women from the past who took scriptures out that were there hundreds of years. Scriptures that other prophets referred back to. All the different translations over the years. A word here and a word there can lead one astray. My Father isn’t light. He is THE LIGHT. There is no mystery with Him. He hides nothing in darkness because darkness cannot not enter His presence. He makes no one jump through hoops with hopes of finding knowledge by shedding light on it. The father of lies is all around you and I. I choose to question what men feed me through media and entertainment. I trust no one other than my Father and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. No need for you and I to squabble over differences in opinion. We don’t need to be stumbling blocks to people who have not accepted Christ. We both proclaim that He is the Son of God and our Lord and Savior. If that is all we have in common then that is more than enough for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 23 minutes ago, NATUREBOY98 said: I don’t have a problem with the sequence of events. In fact, I take them to be literal. I do not question my Father in anything. I do question men/women from the past who took scriptures out that were there hundreds of years. Scriptures that other prophets referred back to. All the different translations over the years. A word here and a word there can lead one astray. My Father isn’t light. He is THE LIGHT. There is no mystery with Him. He hides nothing in darkness because darkness cannot not enter His presence. He makes no one jump through hoops with hopes of finding knowledge by shedding light on it. The father of lies is all around you and I. I choose to question what men feed me through media and entertainment. I trust no one other than my Father and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. No need for you and I to squabble over differences in opinion. We don’t need to be stumbling blocks to people who have not accepted Christ. We both proclaim that He is the Son of God and our Lord and Savior. If that is all we have in common then that is more than enough for me. What do you contend has been removed???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATUREBOY98 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 29 minutes ago, WestHardinfan1 said: What do you contend has been removed???? I believe Enoch was removed by men. I know you disagree, but that’s my belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 18 minutes ago, NATUREBOY98 said: I believe Enoch was removed by men. I know you disagree, but that’s my belief. Enoch is full of contradictions and was not inspired by God...the Holy Spirit removed it, not men...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATUREBOY98 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, WestHardinfan1 said: Enoch is full of contradictions and was not inspired by God...the Holy Spirit removed it, not men...... I respectfully disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATUREBOY98 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Who Was Tertullian? His Writings and Significance Who Was Tertullian? If he ever came to speak at your church you would probably never forget him. He was passionate, articulate, totally committed. He boldly taunted the might of the Roman empire, courageously defended oppressed believers, and harshly reprimanded compromising Christians. In later life, he lost favor with much of the Church when he at least temporarily took up with the Montanists-- what we would probably call today a puritanical-charismatic sect. He was the pacesetter as the church expanded its teaching and influence into the Latin speaking world, breaking new and fertile ground in theological understanding. For example, he coined the word Trinity, a word that does not appear anywhere in the Bible, to help us to understand the New Testament teaching about what God is like. He was one of the most fascinating leaders in all church history. Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was born about 150 AD in Carthage, North Africa, the city considered second in importance only to Rome in his time. His father was the captain of a Roman legion and provided Tertullian with the education and training to become a lawyer. When he was about 40, Tertullian was converted to Christianity. He exuberantly embraced the gospel and ably used his legal skills to defend Christianity from pagan attackers. Writings of Tertullian: Bait, Blood, and Seed Thirty-one of Tertullian's writings remain, touching on all areas of human life. His works include apologetic treatises, controversial attacks on heresies, and moral writings. His Apology defending the Christian faith contains one of the earliest and most eloquent pleas for religious liberty. He argued that the church was self-supporting and provided the most peaceful citizens to the state. The government should be protecting such citizens, not persecuting them. Tertullian also saw, however, that the persecution of the church by the Roman authorities actually strengthened the Church of Christ: "It is bait that wins men for (our) school. The oftener we are mown down by you, the more in number we grow: the blood of Christians is seed [of the church]." Persecution was an ever-present danger in Tertullian's time and place. Christians were often perplexed by it. Was it from the Devil? Should they flee to avoid persecution? Tertullian took a tough line as difficult to understand today as it must have been then for he saw even persecution as from God: It never happens without God willing it, and it is fitting--even at times necessary--for Him to do so, to the approval or condemnation of His servants. . . this is his winnowing fan which even now cleanses the Lord's threshing floor--His church, winnowing the mixed heap of the faithful and separating the wheat of the martyrs from the chaff of the cowards... (When persecution strikes), the Church is mightily stirred; then the faithful are more careful in their preparations, greater attention is given to fasts and station days, to prayers and humility, to mutual charity and love, to holiness and temperance. Men have time for nothing but fear and hope. Therefore, it is clear that persecution, which works for the improvement of the servants of God, cannot be blamed on the Devil. Tertullian and Truth Tertullian had a tenacious sense of the truth and frequently railed against the church's conformity to the world and compromise with surrounding paganism. The social life of his time (just like our time but in slightly different appearance) was riddled with idolatry. Tertullian believed the Christian's conscience should be sensitive to the idolatry associated with the gladiatorial shows, violent games, plays, literature, administration, and even business guilds. "Our Lord Christ has surnamed Himself Truth, not Custom," and Christians should beware of being conformed to this world. The spirit of Christianity, wrote Tertullian, is of meekness, peace, and purity, while the public shows and sporting events only excite the wild and furious passions of anger and lust. Licentious speech is condemned by God, and what a man should not say he should not hear. Regarding Worldly Philosophies In these early years, church leaders were struggling to understand how they should relate the faith to worldly learning. Other Christians of this period, such as Justin Martyr, sought common ground between Greek philosophy and Christian belief. He would consider someone like Socrates as perhaps a Christian before the time of Christ. Tertullian, however, demanded, "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?" Socrates, he asserted, was not a forerunner of Christianity: For by whom has truth ever been discovered without God? By whom has God ever been found without Christ? By whom has Christ ever been explored without the Holy Spirit? By whom has the Holy Spirit ever been attained without the mysterious gift of faith? Socrates, as none can doubt, was actuated by a different spirit. . . In keeping with his great sense of truth, Tertullian also wrote several works attacking the heresies of his day, writing against Gnosticism and expounding orthodox Christian belief, especially the doctrine of the Trinity. Some of his ascetic ideas were later adopted by medieval monasticism. He fought the battle on many fronts as Christians sought to find their way in the midst of a hostile pagan culture. But Tertullian, who had written so outspokenly about martyrdom and persecution, died peacefully sometime after 229 AD Christian History magazine devoted an entire issue to "Worship in the Early Church." Not forgotten. In keeping with his great sense of truth, Tertullian wrote several works attacking the heresies of his day, writing against Gnosticism and expounding orthodox Christian belief, especially the doctrine of the Trinity. These writings were influential, as were some of his ascetic ideas, which were adopted by medieval monasticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATUREBOY98 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 I’ve never heard of this very early church leader. He coined the term Trinity. You’d think we’d have heard of him. Maybe some of you have. Reading this article I was wondering what his thoughts would be on God’s church today. He was pretty harsh towards weak Christians in a time of persecution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATUREBOY98 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Edit These are early church leaders. Many only decades or a century removed from the days that the Son of God walked and taught on this earth. This is their view of Enoch. Epistle of JudeEdit Jude 14 quotes Enoch who as "the seventh from Adam, prophesied," indicating that the book is true and was written by Enoch himself, and thus its composition was of great antiquity. The citation has been taken by some to mean that Jude accepts it as Scripture. Epistle of BarnabasEdit The Epistle of Barnabas (ca 70 AD – 132 AD)[11], a primer used for teaching new Christian converts in the early church, names and quotes Enoch as "Scripture" and elsewhere cites it as Scripture with the formula "it is written."[12] Justin MartyrEdit Justin Martyr (110 AD – 165 AD) accepts Enoch as Scripture and in his Second Apology discusses Enoch in depth and uses it to establish doctrine on fallen angels and the origin of demons from angels' adulteration with women.[13] (In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin charges that some were removing passages of Scripture that prophetically identified Jesus as the Messiah, from Jeremiah and Isaiah.)[14] AthenagorasEdit Athenagoras (133 AD – 190 AD) in his Plea for the Christians uses Enoch to establish doctrine about Genesis 6:1-4, grouping it as one of the books of Prophets of the Old Testament: "you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets."[15] IrenaeusEdit Irenaeus (d. 202 AD), the famous apologist, accepts Enoch as Scripture and, in Against Heresies, discusses the doctrine that Enoch was God's legate to fallen angels, which is unique to Enoch,[16] and that a group of fallen angels devised methods of sorcery to adulterate with women.[17] Also in Against Heresies, Book III, 21.2, Irenaeus treats the books of Chronicles and Ezra as a single book written by Ezra. That would reduce the tally of books in the canon from 22 to 21 unless Enoch was included as part of the canon, as Irenaeus does. Clement of AlexandriaEdit Clement of Alexandria (ca 150 AD – ca 215 AD) accepts Enoch as Scripture and writes that both Daniel and Enoch taught the same thing regarding the blessing of the faithful (Eclogue 2.1) and that the fallen angels were the source of the black arts (53.4).[18] See also Clement’s Homilies XI–XVI for great detail used from Enoch. TertullianEdit Tertullian (155 AD – 222 AD), the founder of Western theological scholarship, in On the Apparel of Women (Book I), names and cites Enoch as "Scripture," part of "the canon" and "divinely inspired." He names Enoch as its genuine, human author. He states that its quotation in Jude 14 is an attestation in the New Testament to its authenticity and that "some" had removed it from the closed canon.[19] In Book II, Tertullian uses Enoch to establish doctrine against the excessive ornamentation of women, attributing its origin to demons who cohabitated with them before the Great Flood.[20] Within his Apologetic, in On Idolatry, he uses Enoch to establish the doctrine that idolatry and astrology originated from demons[21] and that demons are the supernatural issue of fallen angels adulterating with women.[22] CommodianusEdit Commodianus (ca 240) accepts Enoch as Scripture and, in his Instructions, uses information unique to Enoch to establish doctrine on the origin of demons from angels adulterating with women and on the wicked arts they taught. Thus, he shows that heathen gods were actually the same demons.[23] OrigenEdit Origen (185 AD – 254 AD), in De Principiis, names and quotes Enoch as "Holy Scripture" and notes that the church did not accept the several other books called "Enoch" were at all "divine" (Against Celsus). (However, Enoch is missing in the quotation of a canonical list from Eusebius’s Church History attributed to Origen.)[24] AnatoliusEdit Anatolius (early 3rd c AD – July 3, 283 AD) cites Enoch to interpret the ancient Jewish calendar (in a reference to Enoch, Book of Starlight).[25] CassiodorusEdit Cassiodorus (ca 485 AD – ca 585 AD), authenticates Enoch as Scripture by quoting Jude 14 ("In these words he (Jude) verifies the prophecy") and that Enoch was inspired and was integral to the Old Testament. In the same Latin translation of comments on the First Epistle of Peter attributed to Clement of Alexandria (ca.150 – 211/216), Cassiodorus also uses Enoch to establish doctrine that fallen angels are apostates from God.[26] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Jude did NOT quote Enoch or any other writing....the HOLY SPIRIT directed Jude in his writing......anything Jude wrote that was in Enoch only shows that whatever uninspired writer wrote Enoch was like the broke clock....the REST of those men were not inspired by the Holy Spirit since that inspiration left when the New Testament was completed (I Corinthians 13).......so what they have to say on any topic is irrelevant....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 The ONLY Holy Spirit inspired writings are the ones included in The Bible that we read today...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav01 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 The Ethiopian Bible still includes the book of Enoch. They have one of the oldest bibles still around. I tend to believe it was taken out by God reserved to be read by the last generation. I believe it's holy spirit inspired but only for eyes of those wanting to understand what was only hinted at in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETIREDFAN1 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, mav01 said: The Ethiopian Bible still includes the book of Enoch. They have one of the oldest bibles still around. I tend to believe it was taken out by God reserved to be read by the last generation. I believe it's holy spirit inspired but only for eyes of those wanting to understand what was only hinted at in the Bible. The Ethiopian Bible has not been allowed by the Holy Spirit to reach very many people......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav01 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav01 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Pilgrim Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Gates of Hades at the foot of Mt Hermon. The niches carved in the mountain is where pagan worshippers would bring gifts to their pagan god Pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Sorry that they are sideways, I uploaded from my phone from my trip to Israel last spring. i don’t know how to fix it, my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 A few yards away is the spot where Matthew 16:15-18 we were told took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATUREBOY98 Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 12 hours ago, WestHardinfan1 said: Jude did NOT quote Enoch or any other writing....the HOLY SPIRIT directed Jude in his writing......anything Jude wrote that was in Enoch only shows that whatever uninspired writer wrote Enoch was like the broke clock....the REST of those men were not inspired by the Holy Spirit since that inspiration left when the New Testament was completed (I Corinthians 13).......so what they have to say on any topic is irrelevant....... 12 hours ago, WestHardinfan1 said: The ONLY Holy Spirit inspired writings are the ones included in The Bible that we read today...... You I both are CoC. Is it not a fact we try to identify with the 1st century church. Enoch was removed in the 4th century. You keep denying Jude’s reference and saying the Holy Spirit inspired it. You say Enoch was like a broken clock. Right twice a day. That’s insane. How do you know that. God reveal that to you. May the Holy Spirit did indeed inspire Jude to reference Enoch because He would know the work of Enoch was inspired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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