Interesting Under-current: Spread people vs Non-Spread People

[DOB]

On coaching change topics, it's interesting to note the comments concerning offensive philosophies.

Just thinking ....

Many people credit the beginning of the spread to Tiger Ellison in his 1984 book “Run and Shoot Football: The Now Attack” or some to the base concepts of June Jones and the Run and Shoot. (Newer on the scene is a recent book that has come highly recommended for evolutionary football history buffs, Doug Farrar's “The Genius of Desperation: The Schematic Innovations that Made the Modern NFL” I haven't read it, but it's on my Bucket List).

However, in reality it goes back much further than that. As a young coach studying the evolution of modern offenses and defenses, what I quickly discovered was that there was nothing new in the game – it was all stolen from someone else from the past – what did happen was that each of the next group of “modern” offensive coaches used what was done in the past and morphed it into a newer, more modern commodity.

I believe that if you search YouTube for videos of Matty Bell's teams at SMU and Dutch Meyer's squads at TCU, both in the latter 1940's, you will find the true beginnings of the Spread. And even their thinking was a remodel and remake of the old Single Wing from its origination decades before. They just added and embraced a different thinking to the potential of an enhanced passing attack to an older, more established, format.

Even the trite terms of vertical and horizontal stretch that are used so commonly today in the Spread lingo can be traced back to Lavell Edwards at BYU in the early Seventies. There and then, his revolutionary thinking on the passing game produced six All-American Quarterbacks (all under center) in a day when the rest of the world was seared into the operation of an option-based running attack offense. And I would be badly talked about in Texas football circles if I didn't remind everybody that it was the legendary Tom Landry who brought the Shotgun into NFL vogue with Roger Staubach in 1975 – or even Bill Yoeman's contributions with his innovative concepts of the Veer.

All of this creativity in the past contributed to the metamorphic thinking behind what people refer to as the present-day Spread.

And it definitely should be noted here that the Spread, the Wishbone, the Wing-T, and the Slot-T all continue to change … there are many versions of each today … and it would be an insult to football intelligence to suggest that they shouldn't have. As defenses began to catch up, offenses must find a way to stay ahead of the curve. Therefore, in reality, you will be hard-pressed to find a pure-form of each as it was originally designed. The concepts continue to re-occur though out the evolution, but the form changes – with the newer mode being that formational sets tend to cause more problems than plays. But that's a story for another day. We have but hit the tip of the iceberg … and I have really arrived at a belief that the day is rapidly coming when future offenses will be monikored in only two ways – “UTC” (Under the Center) or “the Gun” ...

 

[YourKillinMePetey]

There is very little innovation in football now. Not because coaches aren’t trying or as creative but simply because everything has been tried. There is only so much you can do with 6 people eligible to touch the football. What happens now is a reimagining of “old” ideas. For example the air raid is all the rage these days but if you listen to Mike Leach or read his book, a lot of the concepts come from the wishbone. The wider splits and the idea of equal distribution of the ball, according to him, came from wishbone tape he and Mumme studied.

The best coaches in America are high school coaches and I say that because they have little control over who will be on their roster year in and year out. College and nfl can go out and recruit and draft in the mold they want. Coaches like Surratt at Carthage will always play deep into December because they are willing to build their offense around the players they have, not the players they want. I’m sure he would love to have another Ingram in the backfield but he doesn’t so he has went out and made the adjustments the kids he has need to be successful. 

I have no problem with any one type of offense. I love them all. But coaches who are “wing t guys” or “spread guys” and aren’t willing to adapt do so at their own peril. You aren’t going to have the same players to run the exact same scheme year in and year out. And you can’t run the spread with a QB that runs a 5.3 40, can’t throw farther than 10 yards, and can’t spell cover 2. But by golly let’s put 4 WR out there with our 180 lb tackles and put that stud QB I just mentioned in the shotgun, call it the spread, and he’ll go win us a championship. It’s ludicrous!

[DOB]

No matter what you choose to run, choose wisely, teach well, run well, and then EXECUTE ...

Not sold on any scheme on either side of the ball ... have pretty much run and attacked them all.

But I have no doubt, like anything in life, that some things are best suited for some people.  It's all about FIT.

Schemes seldom win games, people do ... where there's teaching, there's learning ... so teach and learn.

And the day you quit learning is the day life passes you by.  Ask questions first, then seek answers.

It doesn't work the other way around.  "Know your song well before you start singing" ...

[Destry]

Just another thought, if a coach tries to run the spread and has never coached the spread, then he is in for a long year, there is some truth to the old saying "coach what ya know".

[DOB]

1 hour ago, Destry said:

Just another thought, if a coach tries to run the spread and has never coached the spread, then he is in for a long year, there is some truth to the old saying "coach what ya know".

Same can be said for any offensive change ... sometimes the learning curve can be different for different offenses.

One of the more serious questions I always ask is "Do you have an offense OR just a collection of plays" ...

This is what often happens when coaches "dabble" in an offensive system, especially one that they have no expertise in.  Since the beginning of time, plays have been designed to come off of other plays (ie: series) depending on what the defense does to stop the first play ... I see lots of Spread systems that ignore that principal ... I think that is a mistake. 

In a similar situation, I cringe when a spread team comes under center in short yardage or goalline situations (which usually means the game is on the line), especially if they have NOT taken a snap all game under center ... vice versa when a UTC team tries to mix with the spread without a 100% chance of making a sure snap.

However, if coaches are NEVER willing to change, then innovation ceases to exist.  That is why I enjoyed being at a school big enough to have Spring Training.  It was time to try things without having a Friday deadline.

Bottom Line: Don't change just for the sake of change ... have a purpose, a plan, and a system in mind.

The Spread is based entirely around numbers ... number in the box vs number in coverage ... I see more and more people getting away from this basic premise ... which is why you often see a lot of inconsistently from play-to-play ... 

The other Spread concept is simply that there is more grass out there in the open than there is in the gaps between the linemen ... but what happens if you don't have the skill set available to attack all areas of the grass? You can't really expect to make a living throwing only quick screens anymore than the Wing-T can just only running the Belly.

And in the end, it boils down to execution.  Without it, it doesn't matter what you run ... you'll just be spinning your wheels.

[Destry]

2 hours ago, DOB said:

Same can be said for any offensive change ... sometimes the learning curve can be different for different offenses.

One of the more serious questions I always ask is "Do you have an offense OR just a collection of plays" ...

This is what often happens when coaches "dabble" in an offensive system, especially one that they have no expertise in.  Since the beginning of time, plays have been designed to come off of other plays (ie: series) depending on what the defense does to stop the first play ... I see lots of Spread systems that ignore that principal ... I think that is a mistake. 

In a similar situation, I cringe when a spread team comes under center in short yardage or goalline situations (which usually means the game is on the line), especially if they have NOT taken a snap all game under center ... vice versa when a UTC team tries to mix with the spread without a 100% chance of making a sure snap.

However, if coaches are NEVER willing to change, then innovation ceases to exist.  That is why I enjoyed being at a school big enough to have Spring Training.  It was time to try things without having a Friday deadline.

Bottom Line: Don't change just for the sake of change ... have a purpose, a plan, and a system in mind.

The Spread is based entirely around numbers ... number in the box vs number in coverage ... I see more and more people getting away from this basic premise ... which is why you often see a lot of inconsistently from play-to-play ... 

The other Spread concept is simply that there is more grass out there in the open than there is in the gaps between the linemen ... but what happens if you don't have the skill set available to attack all areas of the grass? You can't really expect to make a living throwing only quick screens anymore than the Wing-T can just only running the Belly.

And in the end, it boils down to execution.  Without it, it doesn't matter what you run ... you'll just be spinning your wheels.

I agree. To me, what makes the spread work best is that the other team cannot tackle one on one. Just like six man, it is all about one on one tackling, that and the fact it all looks like a chinese fire drill, lol.

[Tiger1995]

6 hours ago, Destry said:

Just another thought, if a coach tries to run the spread and has never coached the spread, then he is in for a long year, there is some truth to the old saying "coach what ya know".

This ^^^^

[Mr. P]

I remember reading an old football stories book and one of them was about Red Hickey and his "Zephyr" offense...   

For a few weeks the Zephyr was tearing up the whole league. Nobody could do anything with it until, it one coach (maybe George Halas?) realized it was nothing but a variation on the old Single Wing. I think he put his guys in the old Seven Diamond and then shut it down. 

Nothing new under the sun. 

[playactionpass39]

22 hours ago, YourKillinMePetey said:

And you can’t run the spread with a QB that runs a 5.3 40, can’t throw farther than 10 yards, and can’t spell cover 2. But by golly let’s put 4 WR out there with our 180 lb tackles and put that stud QB I just mentioned in the shotgun, call it the spread, and he’ll go win us a championship. It’s ludicrous!

You CAN'T run any offense with this kid at QB.

Ultimately,  you have to have some level of athleticism to win Championships regardless of what offense you choose to run.

The difference in the "modern" world of football (even at the HS level) the forward pass is a necessary aspect of the game which has to be utilized.

Very few teams are so much more physically stronger and more physical that EVERY opponent that they face that they are capable of lining up and running the ball every play and winning championships. I think the perfect example's of this are Woodville and Joaquin. These teams can reach a certain level and win District Championships, but win CHAMPIONSHIPS are not possible.

[DOB]

You really got to have a stacked deck in today's world to win the big prize when you're only one dimensional ...

If you're a very good running team, you really don't have to throw it a lot - as long as you throw it really well ... especially when you need to.

But make so mistake about it, if you only do one ... then somebody's gonna eventually line up to see if you can the other.

They didn't get that far in the playoffs either by being stupid.

 

[DOB]

5 hours ago, AKA said:

I remember reading an old football stories book and one of them was about Red Hickey and his "Zephyr" offense...   

For a few weeks the Zephyr was tearing up the whole league. Nobody could do anything with it until, it one coach (maybe George Halas?) realized it was nothing but a variation on the old Single Wing. I think he put his guys in the old Seven Diamond and then shut it down. 

Nothing new under the sun. 

Everybody made such a big deal outta Buddy Ryan's Bear 46 ... but it was just a re-make of that 7-Diamond, with some Eagle theory mixed in.

And TCU's 4-2-5 is nothing more than an old 6-1 Rover with a few extra secondary wrinkles.

[Doomer]

Don't always eat the spreads but have used the Shedspread from time to time.

[wingtveer]

Non spread to me. 

[DOB]

12 hours ago, wingtveer said:

Non spread to me. 

Although I have watched and studied it intently, I never ran it ... it pre-dated my coaching days ... but I do see that it revisits many of the same conceptual foundations found in the older offenses - especially in running plays.  The biggest change in thinking is the arrival of Alex Gibb's zone blocking theories.  And one thing for me will never change - the belief that some offenses and defenses are better suited for some coaches and kids.  I'm going to run what's best for the kids I have.  I wrote this some time back in one of my more lucid moments ... the game is still about attitude and fortitude, but to each his own.

 

[DOB]

13 hours ago, Doomer said:

Don't always eat the spreads but have used the Shedspread from time to time.

Is that anything like a sheepshead?

[Mr. P]

Do y'all know of anyone (high school or college) who's still running a "pure" 1990s-era Run & Shoot? 

I know that June Jones is a Mouse Davis disciple, so his system is pretty much a continuation of the same concepts, but it seems more of a Spread/Air Raid hybrid than the three-step half-roll Run & Shoot that you saw in Houston (Gamblers/Oilers/Coogs). 

[Doomer]

1 hour ago, DOB said:

Is that anything like a sheepshead?

DOB, Nope Shedspread is margarine sheepshead is cheese. Both go in Doomy's 12 Alarm Chili though along with corn-based secret ingredient. TrueStorie

[Tiger1995]

11 minutes ago, AKA said:

Do y'all know of anyone (high school or college) who's still running a "pure" 1990s-era Run & Shoot? 

I know that June Jones is a Mouse Davis disciple, so his system is pretty much a continuation of the same concepts, but it seems more of a Spread/Air Raid hybrid than the three-step half-roll Run & Shoot that you saw in Houston (Gamblers/Oilers/Coogs). 

Coach Bo Wilson Former Dallas Texans OC and Arp AD/HC was a big influence on that Offense in it's early year's as it was implemented to the pro's

[trueblue82]

There is also quite a bit of value in doing something “different” from what everyone else is doing. For example, I heard a really good coach on the radio some years back discussing his upcoming game with a certain school that ran the double wing offense. He stated “It’s the toughest week we have all year. We can’t simulate what they do in practice.” I heard another really good coach a couple of years later say the exact same thing about an upcoming playoff game against Franklin. When you can cause your opponent to be underprepared for a game, you’re halfway to victory. 

[Mr. P]

1 minute ago, Tiger1995 said:

Coach Bo Wilson Former Dallas Texans OC and Arp AD/HC was a big influence on that Offense in it's early year's as it was implemented to the pro's

You don't have to tell me. I played against that man.   

[playactionpass39]

9 minutes ago, trueblue82 said:

There is also quite a bit of value in doing something “different” from what everyone else is doing. For example, I heard a really good coach on the radio some years back discussing his upcoming game with a certain school that ran the double wing offense. He stated “It’s the toughest week we have all year. We can’t simulate what they do in practice.” I heard another really good coach a couple of years later say the exact same thing about an upcoming playoff game against Franklin. When you can cause your opponent to be underprepared for a game, you’re halfway to victory. 

I agree with you 100%.

They only problem with that idea is that you are in the same boat versus the passing game.

As a Double Wing, run the ball 95% of the time team, you rarely work on the passing game. Your kids don't run precise routs and your lineman don't pass set well. So when you go against a team that throw it really well, you are under prepared.

And, you are at a disadvantage when you get behind in games or the opponent has a great plan to stop the run or you play a team that is bigger and stronger than you are, and you need to pass.

[DOB]

1 hour ago, Doomer said:

DOB, Nope Shedspread is margarine sheepshead is cheese. Both go in Doomy's 12 Alarm Chili though along with corn-based secret ingredient. TrueStorie

Sheepshead is a salt water fish ... goatshead is cheese ... corn-based secret ingredient is highly explosive, but helps you to "cut the cheese" ....

[Purpleforever]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:00 PM, playactionpass39 said:

You CAN'T run any offense with this kid at QB.

Ultimately,  you have to have some level of athleticism to win Championships regardless of what offense you choose to run.

The difference in the "modern" world of football (even at the HS level) the forward pass is a necessary aspect of the game which has to be utilized.

Very few teams are so much more physically stronger and more physical that EVERY opponent that they face that they are capable of lining up and running the ball every play and winning championships. I think the perfect example's of this are Woodville and Joaquin. These teams can reach a certain level and win District Championships, but win CHAMPIONSHIPS are not possible.

That is exactly how fast our quarterback was. We protected him well.

[playactionpass39]

1 minute ago, Purpleforever said:

That is exactly how fast our quarterback was. We protected him well.

Speed is not a NECESSITY in the spread or any other offense for that matter. But, being 5'2, cant throw it past 10 yards and not smart enough to spell Cover 2 is a major problem in all offenses.

[Purpleforever]

That is a different situation all together.