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17 minutes ago, NODAYSOFFTX said:

Suratt, Jon Kay, king, and other would be just fine without the Jimmy’s and joes 

Well, listen....you need Jimmy's and Joe's to get Ws. They definitely matter. 

But you won't ever see those guys go anywhere near .500 in years when they have less talent compared to other years. You'll probably see less wins obviously, but not any 3 win seasons.

I guarantee you Longview would not have 7 wins now with Holmes as HC.

 

 

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2 hours ago, JBizzle said:

So y’all are saying talent carried him through those good years, or he forgot how to coach. The tactics things y’all are talking about suggest he wasn’t a good coach ever. Or he’s gotten lazy?

I think I answererd this a little earlier in this thread.

I think it was a combo of talent and coaching.  Coach did a very good job in recent past. You could argue he is one of the best coaches JT every had, especially if you look at his past accomplishments. 

The issue is not only that they are losing, its the other stuff that has come with that.  Many think that Coach is not adjusting to the drop in talent.  Its easier to coach when Greg Ward or Bryson Smith is the QB. Don't have that type of talent at qb, but still running same offense.In fairness, probably couldn't change this yr anyway due to covid restrictions. 

Also, kids are either not coming out or quiting the program.  So the combo of losing, and kids leaving the program seems to point to a declining program.  But again, he has earned the right to turned things around. So lets see how this goes.

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1 minute ago, JTFAN99 said:

I think I answererd this a little earlier in this thread.

I think it was a combo of talent and coaching.  Coach did a very good job in recent past. You could argue he is one of the best coaches JT every had, especially if you look at his past accomplishments. 

The issue is not only that they are losing, its the other stuff that has come with that.  Many think that Coach is not adjusting to the drop in talent.  Its easier to coach when Greg Ward or Bryson Smith is the QB. Don't have that type of talent at qb, but still running same offense.In fairness, probably couldn't change this yr anyway due to covid restrictions. 

Also, kids are either not coming out or quiting the program.  So the combo of losing, and kids leaving the program seems to point to a declining program.  But again, he has earned the right to turned things around. So lets see how this goes.

I hear ya.  I think you make a good argument there.  But the decline in kids coming out is not necessarily the coach's fault.  Football numbers have declined in lots of places for many reasons.  Some parents are afraid to let their kids play, especially now with all the concussion stuff.  Some kids don't like being told what to do, especially now.  How's the community support?  Kids like a winning program, no doubt, but they also like to play for full (or 50% full) stands and not get screamed at from the stands.  

That being said, I think a large number of high school coaches are not good at coaching anything but what they are used to doing.  Many coaches can't judge their talent and change their scheme to suit their talents.  I'm not saying that's the case here.

One thing I love about Coach Surratt is the style of offense that he runs can become run dominant or pass dominant depending on personnel.  As was mentioned before, even in years the talent was not great, he has found ways to get Carthage 3-4 rounds deep.

I do not know the Tyler coach and won't make an assessment of him with my limited viewing of Tyler games.  As you said, maybe he deserves the chance to turn it around.  On the other hand, a high schooler's playing career is short.  Don't they deserve the best chance at winning?

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22 minutes ago, ANTI said:

Well, listen....you need Jimmy's and Joe's to get Ws. They definitely matter. 

But you won't ever see those guys go anywhere near .500 in years when they have less talent compared to other years. You'll probably see less wins obviously, but not any 3 win seasons.

I guarantee you Longview would not have 7 wins now with Holmes as HC.

 

 

Talent is always important. I think one of the issues is that the things Tyler does on offense requires lots of talent at QB and WR.  Last yr, they had a better qb, but no WRs. This yr, they have WRs (although young), but a much lesser talent at QB.  Without both, the spread can be very ineffective.  A bad offense, can put defense in a tough situation. 

What Longview and Carthage do is not totally dependent on having a dynamic qb. However, when they do have one, they are very tough to beat.   

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10 minutes ago, JBizzle said:

I hear ya.  I think you make a good argument there.  But the decline in kids coming out is not necessarily the coach's fault.  Football numbers have declined in lots of places for many reasons.  Some parents are afraid to let their kids play, especially now with all the concussion stuff.  Some kids don't like being told what to do, especially now.  How's the community support?  Kids like a winning program, no doubt, but they also like to play for full (or 50% full) stands and not get screamed at from the stands.  

That being said, I think a large number of high school coaches are not good at coaching anything but what they are used to doing.  Many coaches can't judge their talent and change their scheme to suit their talents.  I'm not saying that's the case here.

One thing I love about Coach Surratt is the style of offense that he runs can become run dominant or pass dominant depending on personnel.  As was mentioned before, even in years the talent was not great, he has found ways to get Carthage 3-4 rounds deep.

 

Exactly, Carthage style of play is not totally dependent on having a stud at qb.  Now, again, in Coach Holmes defense, he has always had a stud at QB, so I can understand why he runs the spread.  

 I watched a Carthage game a couple yrs ago and they didn't run the same play the entire game.  Surratt is one of the best coaches in Texas history. Its one thing to do it at Allen or Northshore where they have deep talent and students, but to do it at Carthage is amazing.

 

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2 hours ago, VonG said:

 Look at Belicheck. He was the greatest when he had Tom Brady. Now that Brady is gone he doesn't look so great. 

Belicheck had 8 opt outs (covid) + no Brady and Gronk....yet he is two plays away from being 8-4. The Patriots are in the thick of the playoff hunt right now. 

I mean Kevin Stefanski for the Browns will definitely get coach of the year but Belicheck would definitely be top 5 in that conversation.

Belicheck still looks great when you add context.

A true X's and O's coach because lord knows he isnt the strongest drafter.

 

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7 minutes ago, ANTI said:

Belicheck had 8 opt outs (covid) + no Brady and Gronk....yet he is two plays away from being 8-4. The Patriots are in the thick of the playoff hunt right now. 

I mean Kevin Stefanski for the Browns will definitely get coach of the year but Belicheck would definitely be top 5 in that conversation.

Belicheck still looks great when you add context.

A true X's and O's coach because lord knows he isnt the strongest drafter.

 

I know what New England got because that's the team I follow. Before he put together some wins these last few weeks. He wasn't looking so good. Pre Brady and post Brady. His track record has more losses than wins. 

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6 minutes ago, ANTI said:

Belicheck had 8 opt outs (covid) + no Brady and Gronk....yet he is two plays away from being 8-4. The Patriots are in the thick of the playoff hunt right now. 

I mean Kevin Stefanski for the Browns will definitely get coach of the year but Belicheck would definitely be top 5 in that conversation.

Belicheck still looks great when you add context.

A true X's and O's coach because lord knows he isnt the strongest drafter.

 

Belicheck, is always a def genius.  as well.  Just shut out Chargers.

Many Cujo fans don't think we are very good at def.   For starters, some coaches would argue that running a 3-4 def against the I-formation veer (which is what Longview/West Monroe run) is a recipe for failure.  

 

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40 minutes ago, JTFAN99 said:

I think I answererd this a little earlier in this thread.

I think it was a combo of talent and coaching.  Coach did a very good job in recent past. You could argue he is one of the best coaches JT every had, especially if you look at his past accomplishments. 

The issue is not only that they are losing, its the other stuff that has come with that.  Many think that Coach is not adjusting to the drop in talent.  Its easier to coach when Greg Ward or Bryson Smith is the QB. Don't have that type of talent at qb, but still running same offense.In fairness, probably couldn't change this yr anyway due to covid restrictions. 

Also, kids are either not coming out or quiting the program.  So the combo of losing, and kids leaving the program seems to point to a declining program.  But again, he has earned the right to turned things around. So lets see how this goes.

I just got through talking to Isaiah Johnson. I asked him what's up with JT and I asked him why they don't have a freshman team anymore. He said the same thing I was told a few weeks ago. The same thing I posted on here. He said covid hit and parents just took their kids out. I not saying that's the only reason they don't have a freshman team. But I have heard that more than once from two different parties. A current player and an ex player. 

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16 minutes ago, VonG said:

I just got through talking to Isaiah Johnson. I asked him what's up with JT and I asked him why they don't have a freshman team anymore. He said the same thing I was told a few weeks ago. The same thing I posted on here. He said covid hit and parents just took their kids out. I not saying that's the only reason they don't have a freshman team. But I have heard that more than once from two different parties. A current player and an ex player. 

I can believe that. But I also know for many parents, that was the "excuse" they were looking for the get their kid off the field because they don't like the coach.

IF many players come back next yr, and they get 40 or so fresh between Moore and Boulter (which they should), I think they can have both.  But Its probably unlikely. 

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3 minutes ago, JTFAN99 said:

I can believe that. But I also know for many parents, that was the "excuse" they were looking for the get their kid off the field because they don't like the coach.

IF many players come back next yr, and they get 40 or so fresh between Moore and Boulter (which they should), I think they can have both.  But Its probably unlikely. 

That's exactly what happened. That was the final straw. 

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28 minutes ago, JTFAN99 said:

Belicheck, is always a def genius.  as well.  Just shut out Chargers.

Many Cujo fans don't think we are very good at def.   For starters, some coaches would argue that running a 3-4 def against the I-formation veer (which is what Longview/West Monroe run) is a recipe for failure.  

 

Another mark of questionable coaching...

If the side of the ball where the HC specializes doesnt at least flex their muscles...welp.

Odd man front vs a Longview, Katy or any type of dominant running team in I Form/Ace formations utilizing 11, 12, 13, 21, 22, 23 personnels is a recipe for disaster more times than not.

I've seen stingy odd man fronts and I'm a big fan of the 3-4 (Longview fielded some damn good defenses running it in 2018 and 2019) but you better have that DL aligned correctly, and those LBs better be instinctive and attacking the right gaps.

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2 hours ago, VonG said:

Seriously. Northshore and Longview are hot beds for talent. Carthage definitely has talent to. They have sent a lot of players to D1. The running for Texas is from Carthage. Longview won state with a  5 star qb right? Northshore is the most talented team in the state. They not winning without stud players. If they win at places like Bullard, Grand Saline, All Saints, Palestine Westwood, and etc. Then them some bad boys. Until then, they have to talent. 

Art briles just took a 4th place to the semifinals! A 4th place team. You don’t need Jimmy and joes LOL. 

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34 minutes ago, NODAYSOFFTX said:

Art briles just took a 4th place to the semifinals! A 4th place team. You don’t need Jimmy and joes LOL. 

Mt Vernon got some good players. He not winning with scrubs. Jimmy's and Joe's don't mean they have to be D1 players. 

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1 hour ago, VonG said:

Mt Vernon got some good players. He not winning with scrubs. Jimmy's and Joe's don't mean they have to be D1 players. 

They were a 4TH place team. Name another 4th place team that’s in the playoffs that you can legit say and pencil in at going to SEMIFINALS LOL. I’ll wait to see if you can find one. That’s all the coach right there man. 

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46 minutes ago, NODAYSOFFTX said:

They were a 4TH place team. Name another 4th place team that’s in the playoffs that you can legit say and pencil in at going to SEMIFINALS LOL. I’ll wait to see if you can find one. That’s all the coach right there man. 

So the coach is making tackles. Is he throwing the football to the open receiver's? Is he blocking for the running back to gain positive yards and score touchdowns? Is he kicking field goals and extra points? All he is doing is drawing up plays and putting his kids in position to make plays. Which is what he is supposed to do. Because they are solid players, they are executing his game play. 

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From 2012 to 2018 your Coach went to 2 semi finals and twice went 3 or 4 rounds deep in two other years and you want to remove him for a bad year in 2019 and a screwed up COVID-20 year. I tell you this profession is just getting harder and harder to be in. 

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