Football -- "Simple" offenses vs "Complex" offenses

[Monte1076]

I know there are going to be a wide variety of opinions on this topic, which should make for an interesting discussion.

Do you prefer "simple" or more "complex" offenses? I put those two words in quotes on purpose.

When I say "simple", what I mean is that there are not very many formations or motion, but it's about angles, blocking schemes, misdirection etc.

When I say "complex", it's more about multiple formations, motion, all the "bells and whistles" if you will.

I basically played under three systems. In Jr. High, and my Freshman year of High School, we played under a "Wishbone" system. My sophomore and Junior years, I played under a Wing-T system. My Senior Year we played an I-Formation ("freeze option" type thing) with some shotgun spread mixed in.

Also, at least at the HS level, what's your opinion on playcalling nomenclature? I ask because for the most part, in some systems (especially in the run game) play nomenclature can be relatively simple.

For instance, one of the running plays that we had when I played under that Wing-T system was "Right 30 Trap". In that system, The Quarterback was the "2" back, the tailback/halfback was the "1" back, and the Fullback was the "3" back, and the "wingback" was the "4" back, and the holes were numbered based on the offense strength. The "0" hole was always "up the middle", but in a "Right" set, the even numbers were to the right, and the "odd" numbers to the left. So another play, like "Right 18 Pitch", would be an outside (8 hole) toss play to the halfback (the "1" back).

However, it's a different story with passing plays. I know some nomenclature is still simple for passing plays, in some systems. But consider an "Air Coryell" play call:

Split right, scat right, 545 F post.

That's a "simpler" one, I think, because it doesn't have motion calls. But in this play call, "Split Right" is the formation (Split backfield, with the "Y" receiver on the right side), Scat Right is the offensive line protection call, 545 are the numbered routes (X and Z run "5" routes, and the Y receiver runs a "4" or a "40" route, depending on nomenclature), and the F back runs a post.

If you wanted to make that play call a little more complex, you could add some motion, such as:

"Split Right Scat Right Leap 545 F Post". Where "Leap" is a "Y" receiver motion across the formation.

It tells everyone what to do, but it's kind of a mouthful.

Discuss...

 

[Eagleborn]

40 minutes ago, Monte1076 said:

I know there are going to be a wide variety of opinions on this topic, which should make for an interesting discussion.

Do you prefer "simple" or more "complex" offenses? I put those two words in quotes on purpose.

When I say "simple", what I mean is that there are not very many formations or motion, but it's about angles, blocking schemes, misdirection etc.

When I say "complex", it's more about multiple formations, motion, all the "bells and whistles" if you will.

I basically played under three systems. In Jr. High, and my Freshman year of High School, we played under a "Wishbone" system. My sophomore and Junior years, I played under a Wing-T system. My Senior Year we played an I-Formation ("freeze option" type thing) with some shotgun spread mixed in.

Also, at least at the HS level, what's your opinion on playcalling nomenclature? I ask because for the most part, in some systems (especially in the run game) play nomenclature can be relatively simple.

For instance, one of the running plays that we had when I played under that Wing-T system was "Right 30 Trap". In that system, The Quarterback was the "2" back, the tailback/halfback was the "1" back, and the Fullback was the "3" back, and the "wingback" was the "4" back, and the holes were numbered based on the offense strength. The "0" hole was always "up the middle", but in a "Right" set, the even numbers were to the right, and the "odd" numbers to the left. So another play, like "Right 18 Pitch", would be an outside (8 hole) toss play to the halfback (the "1" back).

However, it's a different story with passing plays. I know some nomenclature is still simple for passing plays, in some systems. But consider an "Air Coryell" play call:

Split right, scat right, 545 F post.

That's a "simpler" one, I think, because it doesn't have motion calls. But in this play call, "Split Right" is the formation (Split backfield, with the "Y" receiver on the right side), Scat Right is the offensive line protection call, 545 are the numbered routes (X and Z run "5" routes, and the Y receiver runs a "4" or a "40" route, depending on nomenclature), and the F back runs a post.

If you wanted to make that play call a little more complex, you could add some motion, such as:

"Split Right Scat Right Leap 545 F Post". Where "Leap" is a "Y" receiver motion across the formation.

It tells everyone what to do, but it's kind of a mouthful.

Discuss...

 

98% of the people on this board will have no clue to what you’re talking about. 

[Destry]

Anytime you make things difficult for kids you have more chance of mistakes. Personally you can “ chunk the spread in the trash can”. I equate the spread with individual performances and not team performance although they win and lose together. My thought only.

[RETIREDFAN1]

Simple.....

[JBizzle]

I prefer whatever the coach can use to win with the kids that he has.  This is high school, you can't always count on having the personnel to run the offense you want.  Kids can be taught nomenclature, but they can't be taught to grow 6", add 50 lbs, or run a 4.4 forty.

[PeanutKing74]

It completely relies on the kids ability to execute the offense. Shiner just won a state championship running lead, power, sweep, trap, and some veer mixed in. They only threw the ball when the knew it would work. 

However, complexity is also dependent on what you think is complex. To a lot of people the slot-t appears to be a very simple offense, but it is extremely detailed oriented and contains a wide variety of nomenclature and numbering that takes time to learn. Where as several spread teams call formations and plays using a few as 2 or 3 words. Then others use paragraph long letter tags, blocking schemes, and route combinations to just call lead rt. 

Personally I enjoy fast up-tempo offenses that attack with a variety of run schemes and quick effective passes, and a running QB. That includes teams like Gunter, Waskom, Timpson, and some Slot-T teams like Liberty Hill (minus the QB). I also hate offenses like the Cowboys (please keep winning), but really enjoy the Cardinals and Chiefs.

[bucksweeprules]

Interesting thread.  A misconception that I think most people have is that "spread" offenses are extremely complex, or that they are soft or finesse.  Most spread offenses are very simple to learn and execute.  Also, the plays just mentioned in the post above this one, being the lead, power, sweep, trap and veer are staples of most spread offenses.  Good spread offenses have effective power running games, just ran out of a spread formation.

[JBizzle]

7 minutes ago, fourtwofive said:

Interesting thread.  A misconception that I think most people have is that "spread" offenses are extremely complex, or that they are soft or finesse.  Most spread offenses are very simple to learn and execute.  Also, the plays just mentioned in the post above this one, being the lead, power, sweep, trap and veer are staples of most spread offenses.  Good spread offenses have effective power running games, just ran out of a spread formation.

Agreed.  Most spread offenses are really simple.  They are just designed to get playmakers in space instead of bunching everyone up.  Allows athletes to make plays in space.

[Destry]

I guess the thing I don’t understand is that if an offense is simple then why do kids have to have wrist bands to show what they do.

[Eagleborn]

10 minutes ago, Destry said:

I guess the thing I don’t understand is that if an offense is simple then why do kids have to have wrist bands to show what they do.

To simplify it. 

[upullinmychain]

Or you could use the offense DA USED in 83..toss left or toss right and just knock everybody else down and let your defense be the deciding factor

[Valhalla]

39 minutes ago, Destry said:

I guess the thing I don’t understand is that if an offense is simple then why do kids have to have wrist bands to show what they do.

To communicate faster.

[bucksweeprules]

The wristbands don't tell you what to do in my experience.  They simply help the coach convey the play call faster, which makes it harder on the defense.  Also, most spread offenses do not use wristbands anymore.  Most information is signaled in.

[Monte1076]

3 hours ago, Destry said:

I guess the thing I don’t understand is that if an offense is simple then why do kids have to have wrist bands to show what they do.

So you don't have to huddle. You can simple use a hand signal, and the players can go straight to the LOS in the right formation.

[Monte1076]

1 hour ago, fourtwofive said:

The wristbands don't tell you what to do in my experience.  They simply help the coach convey the play call faster, which makes it harder on the defense.  Also, most spread offenses do not use wristbands anymore.  Most information is signaled in.

There are some spread teams that do still wear wristbands. I think they just signal in numbers for the play, and the players can read the play off the wristband.

[cowboyandchrist]

If you have a coach and staff like Surratt, you can run a very complicated Pro style offense. 
But you better have a QB that knows every players position and lives in the film room and playbook. 
You can only run an offense with the talent you have. 

[Destry]

8 minutes ago, cowboyandchrist said:

If you have a coach and staff like Surratt, you can run a very complicated Pro style offense. 
But you better have a QB that knows every players position and lives in the film room and playbook. 
You can only run an offense with the talent you have. 

Witness that!

[Olduy]

9 hours ago, Monte1076 said:

I know there are going to be a wide variety of opinions on this topic, which should make for an interesting discussion.

Do you prefer "simple" or more "complex" offenses? I put those two words in quotes on purpose.

When I say "simple", what I mean is that there are not very many formations or motion, but it's about angles, blocking schemes, misdirection etc.

When I say "complex", it's more about multiple formations, motion, all the "bells and whistles" if you will.

I basically played under three systems. In Jr. High, and my Freshman year of High School, we played under a "Wishbone" system. My sophomore and Junior years, I played under a Wing-T system. My Senior Year we played an I-Formation ("freeze option" type thing) with some shotgun spread mixed in.

Also, at least at the HS level, what's your opinion on playcalling nomenclature? I ask because for the most part, in some systems (especially in the run game) play nomenclature can be relatively simple.

For instance, one of the running plays that we had when I played under that Wing-T system was "Right 30 Trap". In that system, The Quarterback was the "2" back, the tailback/halfback was the "1" back, and the Fullback was the "3" back, and the "wingback" was the "4" back, and the holes were numbered based on the offense strength. The "0" hole was always "up the middle", but in a "Right" set, the even numbers were to the right, and the "odd" numbers to the left. So another play, like "Right 18 Pitch", would be an outside (8 hole) toss play to the halfback (the "1" back).

However, it's a different story with passing plays. I know some nomenclature is still simple for passing plays, in some systems. But consider an "Air Coryell" play call:

Split right, scat right, 545 F post.

That's a "simpler" one, I think, because it doesn't have motion calls. But in this play call, "Split Right" is the formation (Split backfield, with the "Y" receiver on the right side), Scat Right is the offensive line protection call, 545 are the numbered routes (X and Z run "5" routes, and the Y receiver runs a "4" or a "40" route, depending on nomenclature), and the F back runs a post.

If you wanted to make that play call a little more complex, you could add some motion, such as:

"Split Right Scat Right Leap 545 F Post". Where "Leap" is a "Y" receiver motion across the formation.

It tells everyone what to do, but it's kind of a mouthful.

Discuss...

 

Or we can draw picture in the dirt. Worked for awhile till we got turf

[Monte1076]

1 hour ago, Olduy said:

Or we can draw picture in the dirt. Worked for awhile till we got turf

Did you rush on 5 Mississippi?

[JBizzle]

15 hours ago, Olduy said:

Or we can draw picture in the dirt. Worked for awhile till we got turf

or on the side of the football while standing around it...