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Dead T, Split back veer


Destry
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I doubt you will find anything, T to Spread, in its pure form anymore (my mind is not what it usta be, so don't quote me here: but the last time I personally remember what I would call a pure Dead-T was Celina early this century - and even they had a few wrinkles).  What people call the Wing-T, Slot-T, etc. now is hardly what we ran in the Seventies and Eighties ... I suppose the evolution of such would and should be expected

Since I kinda still have a dog in the hunt (with 25 years of his own), I have watched and studied the old and the new over my last 45 years in education.  What has really changed from offenses, that was so strongly an element of those you mentioned, is the Series concept.  Today, it's like folks pull a play from here that they like and a play from there that they like, and then call it an offense.  The question that always comes up when I have discussions with young'uns is this - do you have an offense or do you have just a collection of plays?  And there is a big difference ... most people, especially at the HS level, are followers not innovators ... and that's OK ... but that's what I liked about Spring Training - it was a non-pressured time to look outside the box a little ... never stop asking "What would happen if we did this this way" ... that's where innovation and evolution comes from.

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There was a school in Arkansas that ran the dead T forever.... Last time i have truly seen it... Cabot, or beebe one of those svhoolls north of little rock if i remember, played in a few state games with it in ther early 2010s if i am not mistook

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So many young coaches are fad or bandwagon coaches. I am all for coaches doing what they know best but , good grief, run the spread because it is the “in” thing is ridiculous.

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56 minutes ago, Destry said:

So many young coaches are fad or bandwagon coaches. I am all for coaches doing what they know best but , good grief, run the spread because it is the “in” thing is ridiculous.

Facts. Run what fits your athletes. 

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5 hours ago, Rowebot said:

There was a school in Arkansas that ran the dead T forever.... Last time i have truly seen it... Cabot, or beebe one of those svhoolls north of little rock if i remember, played in a few state games with it in ther early 2010s if i am not mistook

Cabot ran it under Malham who had over 300 wins. Retired a few years back and now joined the 21st century and runs the spread -

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I know it’s helping to derail the original question, but play calling has become a lost art. It’s like others have said, there’s not a lot of series or structure to what’s being done.  “Hey!  They got 5 in the box!  Run zone!” 
 

Defensive coordinators hardly teach force anymore, it’s all about running pursuit drill and having a 7 on 7 defense.  I know of a DC in the DFW that recently retired who would look at you hack-eyed if you asked him who was going to set an edge for him.  
 

One of the greatest guys I ever talked ball with was Mike Garrison and the sad part is I didn’t spend enough time listening to him. 
 

Somewhere at my parent’s house I have my Uncle’s Dead T playbook from like 1968 or 70 when he played at Ray High School in Corpus. I wish I could get my hands on that again!

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1 hour ago, nationalpastime said:

I know it’s helping to derail the original question, but play calling has become a lost art. It’s like others have said, there’s not a lot of series or structure to what’s being done.  “Hey!  They got 5 in the box!  Run zone!” 
 

Defensive coordinators hardly teach force anymore, it’s all about running pursuit drill and having a 7 on 7 defense.  I know of a DC in the DFW that recently retired who would look at you hack-eyed if you asked him who was going to set an edge for him.  
 

One of the greatest guys I ever talked ball with was Mike Garrison and the sad part is I didn’t spend enough time listening to him. 
 

Somewhere at my parent’s house I have my Uncle’s Dead T playbook from like 1968 or 70 when he played at Ray High School in Corpus. I wish I could get my hands on that again!

And the best thing about the dead t is that it is not rocket science and doesn’t take 10 minutes and 5 formations to call one play.

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19 hours ago, Rowebot said:

There was a school in Arkansas that ran the dead T forever.... Last time i have truly seen it... Cabot, or beebe one of those svhoolls north of little rock if i remember, played in a few state games with it in ther early 2010s if i am not mistook

That would be Mike Malham, HC at Cabot since the early 1980's, retiring I think in 2018 ... somewhere I remember reading that even he made some adjustments to the Dead-T near the end of his career to accent a tremendous athlete at QB ...

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17 hours ago, Destry said:

So many young coaches are fad or bandwagon coaches. I am all for coaches doing what they know best but , good grief, run the spread because it is the “in” thing is ridiculous.

 

16 hours ago, THEHARDWAY said:

Facts. Run what fits your athletes. 

Had many a good discussion along these lines sitting at a Clinic coffee shop drawing on napkins ... in reality, both concepts are correct - you have to run what you know and can teach ... and you have to use that you know to fit your kids ... as a result, if you look closely at the evolution on both sides of the ball, you will find that successful people adjust what they do know to feature the talents of their kids for any given season ... that may be an oversimplification, but I suspect that that is where a lot of "new" innovations come from ... example - I do see coaches who rarely snap under center who use and meld the older offensive blocking schemes and theories that come from the Slot and Wing days ... when I started coaching, I hit used book stores every time we traveled to clinics, college spring trainings, and coaching schools to buy every older coaching title I could locate - probably had 500 titles about both sides of the ball dating back to the 1910's ... what I learned was that absolutely nothing I saw in my coaching days or see now is really new ... it's just a remake from the past that someone has put a new vernacular spin on ... and it's always best to remember, that techniques may change - but fundamentals never do.

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... sorry, I just had a flashback ... one thing new coaches are "missing" ... up until video came into vogue and acceptable in the mid-to-late Eighties ... after a game, we had to drive a few hours to Pasadena to have the game film developed ... then we would wait around until they were finished with it (first come first served) ... all the coaches there would gather at some all-night coffee shop to visit, talk football, again drawing on napkins, and wait it out.  If we were lucky, we would get back home with the film about daylight ... and it was always our responsibility to bring the donuts and have the coffee ready when the rest of the staff arrived.  Like many things over the years, HUDL spoils the youngsters.  I probably look older than I really am because of all the sleep I lost.

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2 hours ago, DOB said:

That would be Mike Malham, HC at Cabot since the early 1980's, retiring I think in 2018 ... somewhere I remember reading that even he made some adjustments to the Dead-T near the end of his career to accent a tremendous athlete at QB ...

That is an example of good coaching 

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4 hours ago, DOB said:

 

Had many a good discussion along these lines sitting at a Clinic coffee shop drawing on napkins ... in reality, both concepts are correct - you have to run what you know and can teach ... and you have to use that you know to fit your kids ... as a result, if you look closely at the evolution on both sides of the ball, you will find that successful people adjust what they do know to feature the talents of their kids for any given season ... that may be an oversimplification, but I suspect that that is where a lot of "new" innovations come from ... example - I do see coaches who rarely snap under center who use and meld the older offensive blocking schemes and theories that come from the Slot and Wing days ... when I started coaching, I hit used book stores every time we traveled to clinics, college spring trainings, and coaching schools to buy every older coaching title I could locate - probably had 500 titles about both sides of the ball dating back to the 1910's ... what I learned was that absolutely nothing I saw in my coaching days or see now is really new ... it's just a remake from the past that someone has put a new vernacular spin on ... and it's always best to remember, that techniques may change - but fundamentals never do.

That’s awesome and I completely agree. You can’t change your offense every year to fit your kids, but in most instances you can make changes within your offense to fit your kids. Canadian runs the spread at tempo. Some years we are more pass heavy, some years if we have the line and the back, we are more run heavy. Still the spread, but modified to fit the athletes!

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23 hours ago, MattStepp said:

Kennedale is pretty close to old school Wing-T as you'll see...Barrett has been running that offense forever

Good observation ... though his wrinkles tend to center on wingback motions (2nd Back Thru and Weakside Quick Pitch) ... example: the one play I have seen him use that other Wings don't usually include in their basic package is what we usta call The Second Back Thru ... have only seen him run it versus even fronts ...

Is very similar to Scott Phillip's Split Back's 2nd Back Thru ... he liked it also versus even fronts, but he would run it against odds if they pinch the tackle to help on the inside dives.

I have always assumed that their 2nd Back Thru concept came from the early Bellard Wishbone ... no confirmation ... just hadn't seen it earlier than that.

two.jpg

I believe Barrett was originally from Weatherford and I know he went to Tarleton ... so I am assuming he is one of the classic leftovers from the West Texas Wing-T bunch that once dominated the scene.  No one can argue with his success, although some have contributed his district championship dominance on the school's long association in the Ft. Worth UIL district.  Doesn't matter though ... I like to watch him at work, I'm just glad I'm not sitting across from him on the chessboard every Friday night.

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1 hour ago, DOB said:

Good observation ... though his wrinkles tend to center on wingback motions (2nd Back Thru and Weakside Quick Pitch) ... example: the one play I have seen him use that other Wings don't usually include in their basic package is what we usta call The Second Back Thru ... have only seen him run it versus even fronts ...

Is very similar to Scott Phillip's Split Back's 2nd Back Thru ... he liked it also versus even fronts, but he would run it against odds if they pinch the tackle to help on the inside dives.

I have always assumed that their 2nd Back Thru concept came from the early Bellard Wishbone ... no confirmation ... just hadn't seen it earlier than that.

two.jpg

I believe Barrett was originally from Weatherford and I know he went to Tarleton ... so I am assuming he is one of the classic leftovers from the West Texas Wing-T bunch that once dominated the scene.  No one can argue with his success, although some have contributed his district championship dominance on the school's long association in the Ft. Worth UIL district.  Doesn't matter though ... I like to watch him at work, I'm just glad I'm not sitting across from him on the chessboard every Friday night.

2nd back through is an off shoot of the old belly series from the straight T,  dive back straight ahead and then fullback right off tackle , “just saying “.

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2 hours ago, DOB said:

Good observation ... though his wrinkles tend to center on wingback motions (2nd Back Thru and Weakside Quick Pitch) ... example: the one play I have seen him use that other Wings don't usually include in their basic package is what we usta call The Second Back Thru ... have only seen him run it versus even fronts ...

Is very similar to Scott Phillip's Split Back's 2nd Back Thru ... he liked it also versus even fronts, but he would run it against odds if they pinch the tackle to help on the inside dives.

I have always assumed that their 2nd Back Thru concept came from the early Bellard Wishbone ... no confirmation ... just hadn't seen it earlier than that.

two.jpg

I believe Barrett was originally from Weatherford and I know he went to Tarleton ... so I am assuming he is one of the classic leftovers from the West Texas Wing-T bunch that once dominated the scene.  No one can argue with his success, although some have contributed his district championship dominance on the school's long association in the Ft. Worth UIL district.  Doesn't matter though ... I like to watch him at work, I'm just glad I'm not sitting across from him on the chessboard every Friday night.

Yes Barrett is a Weatherford guy...worked for Danny Yokeley at Everman in the early 90s...a great man and one of the last of a dying breed....he's only really been with FWISD last couple of alignments..Kennedale has been thrown any number of directions in realignment over the years 

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On 6/17/2022 at 5:57 AM, Destry said:

2nd back through is an off shoot of the old belly series from the straight T,  dive back straight ahead and then fullback right off tackle , “just saying “.

Good point - Of that, I have NO doubt ... we were running it as far back as the early Sixties when I was in Jr. High and when ole Shep was justa newborn pup ...

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On 6/15/2022 at 7:38 PM, Destry said:

And the best thing about the dead t is that it is not rocket science and doesn’t take 10 minutes and 5 formations to call one play.

Yea, but you might put the wristband flip-top people outta business and ruin the economy .... and then what would the signaling one or two assistant coaches have to do while on the sideline during a game? ... tis a lol

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1 hour ago, DOB said:

Yea, but you might put the wristband flip-top people outta business and ruin the economy .... and then what would the signaling one or two assistant coaches have to do while on the sideline during a game? ... tis a lol

Love it!!!😂😂😂😂

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I'm one of these 'new age' coaches but I love the old school offenses.  I know as a D coordinator its something that the kids and coaches are not used too so its hard to get ready for.   Also worked in as a defensive coordinator with an old school offense and I can tell you its my favorite from that standpoint as well as I was on defense a lot less than when I was attached to a spread.  Anytime the defense isnt on the field it cant give up points which is always a plus.  There is a place in the world for spread, but not every place in the world should run spread.  

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1 hour ago, dogs3505 said:

I'm one of these 'new age' coaches but I love the old school offenses.  I know as a D coordinator its something that the kids and coaches are not used too so its hard to get ready for.   Also worked in as a defensive coordinator with an old school offense and I can tell you its my favorite from that standpoint as well as I was on defense a lot less than when I was attached to a spread.  Anytime the defense isnt on the field it cant give up points which is always a plus.  There is a place in the world for spread, but not every place in the world should run spread.  

AMEN AND AMEN

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