Carthage versus Van

[Lion7000]

8 hours ago, cowboyandchrist said:

Van had 8 yards rushing and 56 yards passing for the game.

Good win Dawgs on a nasty night.

Rest up and get ready for the run you been working so hard for.

God Bless Coaches, Players, and Fans.

Safe travels home.

Total Dominance 

[Lion7000]

6 hours ago, trashyhound said:

After watching their game tonight (and I know I'll get crucified for this but...) they don't have the best coaches.  They have an embarrassment of riches! They have more "dudes" and personell on their coaching staff,  and equipment than anyone in the state! The sheer number of coaches and move-ins they get is just ridiculous! They are very well coached,  but I can't say Surratt is the best because he plays with such a stacked hand.  The money flowing through the Carthage program is an advantage whether folks want to admit it or not.  That said, those jokers can play some ball!!! They will win the ship this year,  EASY!! 

Surratt and Preston are the best in the business. Kilgore ,Henderson , Chapel Hill , Van , Gilmer, Lindale have the talent and play the same teams but not close to the success. This isn’t disputable.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Mojo1000

[trashyhound]

9 minutes ago, Mojo1000 said:

Surratt and Preston are the best in the business. Kilgore ,Henderson , Chapel Hill , Van , Gilmer, Lindale have the talent and play the same teams but not close to the success. This isn’t disputable.

You've never seen Van and Lindale if you compare those teams and Carthage.  

What you said may be true, but answer me this, 

When was the last game where Carthage didn't have the most talent in the field?

[Lion7000]

21 minutes ago, trashyhound said:

You've never seen Van and Lindale if you compare those teams and Carthage.  

What you said may be true, but answer me this, 

When was the last game where Carthage didn't have the most talent in the field?

Talent has always been there. Beast Texas is a real thing.  Plenty of East Texas teams have the talent. Surratt can utilize said talent. He can set up play before it happens and not rely simply by out athlete the opponent. Preston does his homework and has his players in position. You can’t honestly tell me they’re that much better than Kilgore/Gilmer ect…. Coaching matters. Look at teams that have the players but lack the direction.  Aka Henderson.

[cowboyandchrist]

9 hours ago, PantherNation2015 said:

When is the last time Carthage had a punt blocked, an XP blocked, and had a safety in the same game?

The blocked punt is still a head scratcher. Cuff in shot gun, takes the snap and then pitches the ball to a wide receiver to punt. What the heck. The blocked punt gives Van the ball on the five yard line. If you going to punt, just punt the ball. Like another poster said, I bet we don’t ever see that play again. 
The safety you knew was possible. 
Van punts and the ball is downed at the goal line. The back up O line got no push. Starters in the game, that does not happen. 
It was a strange set of events on those two plays. 

[cowboyandchrist]

22 minutes ago, Mojo1000 said:

Talent has always been there. Beast Texas is a real thing.  Plenty of East Texas teams have the talent. Surratt can utilize said talent. He can set up play before it happens and not rely simply by out athlete the opponent. Preston does his homework and has his players in position. You can’t honestly tell me they’re that much better than Kilgore/Gilmer ect…. Coaching matters. Look at teams that have the players but lack the direction.  Aka Henderson.

The best coaches in the state. 
Coach Surratt and Preston will both be Texas hall of fame inductees when they retire. Coach Surratt is a master mind at dissecting a teams weak spot on any given play. Coach Preston seems to know where the ball is going before the ball is snapped. That is why you see four and five Dawgs in on the tackle. 
The coaching staff have the dedication and hard work it takes to teach our Dawgs how to play physical, be in the right spot, and give 100 percent on every play. It has not been one person, it takes every coach from the 7th grade to the varsity to be as successful as the Dawgs have been. The man that made that all come together is Scott Surratt and it started in 2007. 

[SpaceGhost]

1 hour ago, trashyhound said:

You've never seen Van and Lindale if you compare those teams and Carthage.  

What you said may be true, but answer me this, 

When was the last game where Carthage didn't have the most talent in the field?

I would say Henderson in 2016 possibly had more talent. Beat us in district then lost a very close game in playoffs to Dawgs

Edited October 29, 2022 by SpaceGhost

[BevBrownJr]

12 minutes ago, SpaceGhost said:

I would say Henderson in 2016 possibly had more talent. Beat us in district then lost in playoffs to Dawgs

If Coach Surratt and his staff had been coaching Henderson that year, the Lions would have won state.

Edited October 29, 2022 by BevBrownJr

[HearEmaGrowlin]

1 hour ago, trashyhound said:

I shouldn't had worded it the way I did.  I'll rephrase

They are well coached,  but It's hard to know just how good the coaches really are.  It's hard to see how good a coach is when they win the talent / coaching numbers and money competition against every school they play.  Carthage doesn't play many opponents with more talent than them.  

If Surratt went to Bullard or Canton and had the same success then it would be more obvious,  but as it stands almost every coach he plays would trade rosters with him,  and that's a huge advantage.  

I do understand what you’re saying and also don’t believe you to be taking shots at Surratt or Carthage.

I do get what you’re saying, the case you’re presenting.

My opinion of what your opinion is, is this:

Surratt is a great coach, and Carthage has tons of talent every year.  Due to the amount of really good players at his disposal every year it’s hard, in your opinion, to decipher exactly how much credit needs to go to Surratt and how much needs to go to the players for the amount of success we’ve had over the years.

I do think others in the area have really good players too and consistently have high quality talent like Carthage.  However, at the same time, I am of the opinion CHS and Surratt have actually had a tad bit more to a full notch more talent across the board year in and year out than say Gilmer.

I mean, in 2017 or 2020, I can’t remember which, our offensive line averaged larger than the Dallas Cowboys OL did that same season.  

That is not inaccurate, that is 100% truth and they weren’t just big they were really good. 

I agree with you that CHS does have more athletes to play with and for the coaches to utilize.

Great example last night; our best receiver goes down with an injury and his replacement comes in and immediately scores on the next play weaving through the Van defense as if the offense didn’t miss a beat, and it didn’t.

Out of caution, Hatten didn’t get back on the field and could be seen hobbling some after the game.

We will need him in the playoffs, but there are plenty of dudes on this team.

One thing Carthage people have always joked about as consistently being true and is another example of CHS always having great athletes is this little joke:

”Death, taxes and Bulldog running backs”

Ultimately though, when I think about this conundrum  I come back to one fact.

Carthage has ALWAYS had tons of talent and we never won like this until Scott Surratt became our head coach.

Surratt is worth every penny we’re paying him PLUS DOUBLE.

That’s how I feel about it and am thankful we have really talented players and thankful we have SS & Co.

Go Dawgs!!!!!!!!!

[JBizzle]

1 hour ago, trashyhound said:

I shouldn't had worded it the way I did.  I'll rephrase

They are well coached,  but It's hard to know just how good the coaches really are.  It's hard to see how good a coach is when they win the talent / coaching numbers and money competition against every school they play.  Carthage doesn't play many opponents with more talent than them.  

If Surratt went to Bullard or Canton and had the same success then it would be more obvious,  but as it stands almost every coach he plays would trade rosters with him,  and that's a huge advantage.  

There has to be some talent on the field to win football games, that’s not a question.

But if you think Carthage had the most talent every year they won state, you’re crazy.

If you look at it, yes there’s been some real talented kids that have played at the next level, but those guys are all over the state. The difference is what Scott and company do with the guys who will never play another down of football when leaving Carthage. Guys who aren’t big, fast, or strong but become key parts of the team. To me that sets apart the great from the elite. 
200 wins in 16 season. I don’t care what kids are on the team that’s impressive.

[cotton84]

1 hour ago, trashyhound said:

You've never seen Van and Lindale if you compare those teams and Carthage.  

What you said may be true, but answer me this, 

When was the last game where Carthage didn't have the most talent in the field?

Year Carthage best Kilgore in the finals……..Year Carthage got 3rd in district and won state, both Hendo and Kilgore had more talent………Crosby had more talent……list is short, but there is more. 
Answer this - how many players on Carthage this year can break 4.60 in the 40 ??

[HearEmaGrowlin]

Just now, cotton84 said:

Year Carthage best Kilgore in the finals……..Year Carthage got 3rd in district and won state, both Hendo and Kilgore had more talent………Crosby had more talent……list is short, but there is more. 
Answer this - how many players on Carthage this year can break 4.60 in the 40 ??

Probably more than we think, to be honest.

[PantherNation2015]

6 minutes ago, JBizzle said:

There has to be some talent on the field to win football games, that’s not a question.

But if you think Carthage had the most talent every year they won state, you’re crazy.

If you look at it, yes there’s been some real talented kids that have played at the next level, but those guys are all over the state. The difference is what Scott and company do with the guys who will never play another down of football when leaving Carthage. Guys who aren’t big, fast, or strong but become key parts of the team. To me that sets apart the great from the elite. 
200 wins in 16 season. I don’t care what kids are on the team that’s impressive.

To go along with what you said above (which I agree 100%), Carthage executes at an extremely high level on both sides of the ball.  That typically is the difference maker when talent is equal.  Executing at a high level comes from preparation and repetition, which is a result of good coaching.

[LetsGoEagles]

OK, I see what Trashy is saying now, it’s kind of the Bill Belicheeks and Tom Brady argument. Who’s the bigger cause for the success? In that case, I think we’ve found out, it was Brady. But I think SS is a phenomenal coach, he has built a PROGRAM and in HS ball, that is everything. A System that bleeds down to JH, smaller community where the football team is the center of attention, talent pipeline that constantly feeds and something that I think it very important is it doesn’t sound like he has a lot of assistant turnover. Plus, those little kids dream of growing up to be a Dawg, It’s a way of life. When you hit 7th grade or earlier, that’s the goal - MAKE VARSITY. Be a DAWG. It’s the focal point of the community and so many communities in the state WISH they had what Carthage has and SS has built. It’s pretty incredible. I have great respect & admiration for it. 

[cotton84]

30 minutes ago, JBizzle said:

There has to be some talent on the field to win football games, that’s not a question.

But if you think Carthage had the most talent every year they won state, you’re crazy.

If you look at it, yes there’s been some real talented kids that have played at the next level, but those guys are all over the state. The difference is what Scott and company do with the guys who will never play another down of football when leaving Carthage. Guys who aren’t big, fast, or strong but become key parts of the team. To me that sets apart the great from the elite. 
200 wins in 16 season. I don’t care what kids are on the team that’s impressive.

Another thing that is overlooked by some - dedication/work by coaches to get the players “all in” on a year round(or at least almost year round) strength program - and not just during the athletic period during school. 

[Vandalman]

All this talk about coaches, players etc is just a cover up. We all know the real secret is there's just something in the water. Next time I'm over that way I'm picking up a gallon and bringing home with me...

[BevBrownJr]

Carthage hardly ever runs two plays in a row from the same formation.  If their opponent has a weakness (or weaknesses), Coach Surratt will find it (them) and attack it (them). He has enough “riverboat gambler” in him to keep the opposing defense continuously guessing about what’s coming next. He is a master at making adjustments…and that’s not confined to halftime. His offense can both run and pass at an elite level, leaving the opponent to have to “pick their poison”. He insists that his team always play hard.

I suspect any defensive coordinator who has had to face his offense would echo and expand on the above.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by BevBrownJr

[PantherNation2015]

1 minute ago, BevBrownJr said:

Carthage hardly ever runs two plays in a row from the same formation.  If their opponent has a weakness (or weaknesses), Coach Surratt will find it (them)and attack it (them). He has enough “riverboat gambler” in him to keep the opposing defense continuously guessing about what’s coming next. He is a master at making adjustments…and that’s not confined to halftime. His offense can both run and pass at an elite level, leaving the opponent to have to “pick their poison. He insists that his team always play hard.

I suspect any defensive coordinator who has had to face his offense would echo and expand on the above.

 

 

Kilgore’s Defensive prep vs Van’s Defensive prep must of been like comparing grapes and watermelons.  

[BlackShirtD]

1 hour ago, Mojo1000 said:

Talent has always been there. Beast Texas is a real thing.  Plenty of East Texas teams have the talent. Surratt can utilize said talent. He can set up play before it happens and not rely simply by out athlete the opponent. Preston does his homework and has his players in position. You can’t honestly tell me they’re that much better than Kilgore/Gilmer ect…. Coaching matters. Look at teams that have the players but lack the direction.  Aka Henderson.

Mojo you are exactly right.  There are a few teams that have lots of talent and are not even close to being a Carthage.  Henderson should be ashamed.   I also think Marshall has been in that boat but thinking Alvarez has them trending up fast.   

[BlackShirtD]

16 minutes ago, cotton84 said:

Another thing that is overlooked by some - dedication/work by coaches to get the players “all in” on a year round(or at least almost year round) strength program - and not just during the athletic period during school. 

+1000

[cowboyandchrist]

Side note

In 10 games, The starting Dawg defense has given up 3.3 points per game. 
In todays offenses that is unreal. 
In 7 of the 10 games, they held opponents to minus yards rushing at the half. 
Van had 0 yards rushing at half time. 

[Lambo]

3 hours ago, trashyhound said:

I shouldn't had worded it the way I did.  I'll rephrase

They are well coached,  but It's hard to know just how good the coaches really are.  It's hard to see how good a coach is when they win the talent / coaching numbers and money competition against every school they play.  Carthage doesn't play many opponents with more talent than them.  

If Surratt went to Bullard or Canton and had the same success then it would be more obvious,  but as it stands almost every coach he plays would trade rosters with him,  and that's a huge advantage.  

Here's what I always ask people when they make this ignorant assessment. How many State Championships did Carthage win before Surratt? None? Ok now how many did they play in? The answer is one and it was in 1991 so it was before I was born and I'm almost 30 the only reason I know about it is because I had the pleasure of playing for Lynn Burlinson. Your right about one thing though everyone would trade rosters with him... BECAUSE HE'S PUT THE WORK INTO MAKING THEM WHAT THEY ARE!

Edited October 29, 2022 by Lambo

[house]

After watching surratt since the beginning my assessment is he is an intelligent perfectionist that won’t be out worked.  Those characteristic’s will always be successful if you can keep it fun and not lose your sanity.  No doubt he has been a huge gift to the kids in Carthage.  You know he has to be the most hated coach since he beats everybody.  I can’t find anything bad about the guy.  

[PantherNation2015]

Carthage peeps - what’s the word on Hatten?  Was it his ankle or knee that got banged up in Q1?

[BevBrownJr]

1 hour ago, cowboyandchrist said:

Side note

In 10 games, The starting Dawg defense has given up 3.3 points per game. 
In todays offenses that is unreal. 
In 7 of the 10 games, they held opponents to minus yards rushing at the half. 
Van had 0 yards rushing at half time. 

The Bulldogs haven’t trailed for a single second thus far this season.

Starting QB Connor Cuff hasn’t taken a snap in the 4th quarter of the last 9 games.