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Let's talk about school bond elections in East Texas...


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It’s a shame no one in ETX can seem to get something like this built. 

We have a hard enough time passing bonds when the schools are literally falling apart. 

Probably part of the reason our growth is flat. No vision.

Gotta keep that 6 dollars in taxes every month to buy some chewin tabacky 

🙄🙄🙄🙄

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6 hours ago, Mavchamp said:

It’s a shame no one in ETX can seem to get something like this built. 

We have a hard enough time passing bonds when the schools are literally falling apart. 

Probably part of the reason our growth is flat. No vision.

Gotta keep that 6 dollars in taxes every month to buy some chewin tabacky

It's a lingering holdover from the Oil Boom mindset. Thinking you can just "pay cash" for everything. 

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7 hours ago, Mr. P said:

It's a lingering holdover from the Oil Boom mindset. Thinking you can just "pay cash" for everything. 

It's also a doesn't benefit me / I don't have kids in the school, so I'm not going to pay for it mentality

Edited by JasonDellaRosa
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3 minutes ago, JasonDellaRosa said:

It's also a doesn't benefit me / I don't have kids in the school, so I'm not going to pay for it mentality

Which inevitably leads to the how come we don't have new industries coming here/how come our grandkids moved to the suburbs/how come our town is dying consequences. 

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I agree with everything @Mavchamp, @Mr. P, @JasonDellaRosa and @TIMRIGGINS are saying.

Longview, Lufkin and Marshall should all have stadiums much closer to the new Melissa stadium than what they have, especially Longview.

I like Lobo for the way it’s set up, but it’s pretty run down.

Anyhow, there are a lot more people out there than you’d think who have the “It doesn’t benefit me, and I no longer have kids in school.” mentality who ruin bond elections, because they don’t want to pay an extra $20 or whatever per year in taxes…..knowing they’re well financially just have no desire to help the school district.

TOTALLY RIDICULOUS.

I’ve been involved in these same discussions on SDC in the past and there were plenty of folks who came on here saying some folks just don’t have an extra $50 OVER THE COURSE OF AN ENTIRE YEAR to spend in extra taxes in order to vote yes for the school to have nicer things not just athletic upgrades.  
 

East Texas is made up of folks who earn on average a lot less annually than those in suburban DFW, Houston, Austin, etc.  However, these bond elections many times actually don’t increase our individual taxes, at least they haven’t in Carthage.

Remember how upset so many people were when we built a $6M stadium and then how livid they were when they found out the jumbotron was an additional $600,000 or so.  That big TV really made people mad statewide and here in Carthage and around Panola County.

I mean, why the animosity over things that have very, very, very little consequence to you personally, which also benefits the entire community?  
I will vote yes for every bond election Superintendent Bitter wants to put to a vote whether it looks like it’ll raise my taxes or not.

I want CISD to have the best of everything.

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1 hour ago, HearEmaGrowlin said:

I agree with everything @Mavchamp, @Mr. P, @JasonDellaRosa and @TIMRIGGINS are saying.

Longview, Lufkin and Marshall should all have stadiums much closer to the new Melissa stadium than what they have, especially Longview.

I like Lobo for the way it’s set up, but it’s pretty run down.

Anyhow, there are a lot more people out there than you’d think who have the “It doesn’t benefit me, and I no longer have kids in school.” mentality who ruin bond elections, because they don’t want to pay an extra $20 or whatever per year in taxes…..knowing they’re well financially just have no desire to help the school district.

TOTALLY RIDICULOUS.

I’ve been involved in these same discussions on SDC in the past and there were plenty of folks who came on here saying some folks just don’t have an extra $50 OVER THE COURSE OF AN ENTIRE YEAR to spend in extra taxes in order to vote yes for the school to have nicer things not just athletic upgrades.  
 

East Texas is made up of folks who earn on average a lot less annually than those in suburban DFW, Houston, Austin, etc.  However, these bond elections many times actually don’t increase our individual taxes, at least they haven’t in Carthage.

Remember how upset so many people were when we built a $6M stadium and then how livid they were when they found out the jumbotron was an additional $600,000 or so.  That big TV really made people mad statewide and here in Carthage and around Panola County.

I mean, why the animosity over things that have very, very, very little consequence to you personally, which also benefits the entire community?  
I will vote yes for every bond election Superintendent Bitter wants to put to a vote whether it looks like it’ll raise my taxes or not.

I want CISD to have the best of everything.

 

 

 

I could go on a really long rant about the how’s and why’s behind the failure of most bonds in ETX.

But why mince words?  I’ll just point out the elephant in the room: 

Old white people have no interest in paying for facilities used by brown and black students.  

They will give OTHER reasons as to why they vote NO….but make no mistake… the R-word is what it boils down to for a lot of ETX districts. Especially the ETX 5A districts.

8 of the 10 ETX 5A districts are minority districts.  Passing bonds for SCHOOLS alone is hard enough.  But passing bonds for athletic facilities is nearly impossible. 

It is what it is.

 

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13 hours ago, HearEmaGrowlin said:

I agree with everything @Mavchamp, @Mr. P, @JasonDellaRosa and @TIMRIGGINS are saying.

Longview, Lufkin and Marshall should all have stadiums much closer to the new Melissa stadium than what they have, especially Longview.

I like Lobo for the way it’s set up, but it’s pretty run down.

Anyhow, there are a lot more people out there than you’d think who have the “It doesn’t benefit me, and I no longer have kids in school.” mentality who ruin bond elections, because they don’t want to pay an extra $20 or whatever per year in taxes…..knowing they’re well financially just have no desire to help the school district.

TOTALLY RIDICULOUS.

I’ve been involved in these same discussions on SDC in the past and there were plenty of folks who came on here saying some folks just don’t have an extra $50 OVER THE COURSE OF AN ENTIRE YEAR to spend in extra taxes in order to vote yes for the school to have nicer things not just athletic upgrades.  
 

East Texas is made up of folks who earn on average a lot less annually than those in suburban DFW, Houston, Austin, etc.  However, these bond elections many times actually don’t increase our individual taxes, at least they haven’t in Carthage.

Remember how upset so many people were when we built a $6M stadium and then how livid they were when they found out the jumbotron was an additional $600,000 or so.  That big TV really made people mad statewide and here in Carthage and around Panola County.

I mean, why the animosity over things that have very, very, very little consequence to you personally, which also benefits the entire community?  
I will vote yes for every bond election Superintendent Bitter wants to put to a vote whether it looks like it’ll raise my taxes or not.

I want CISD to have the best of everything.

 

 

 

That was well said. Melissa's new stadium is advertised at around 35 million but it is more than that. I believe the video board was between 2 and 4 million. Then the ribbon video boards have to be a few hundred thousand. 

12 hours ago, Mavchamp said:

I could go on a really long rant about the how’s and why’s behind the failure of most bonds in ETX.

But why mince words?  I’ll just point out the elephant in the room: 

Old white people have no interest in paying for facilities used by brown and black students.  

They will give OTHER reasons as to why they vote NO….but make no mistake… the R-word is what it boils down to for a lot of ETX districts. Especially the ETX 5A districts.

8 of the 10 ETX 5A districts are minority districts.  Passing bonds for SCHOOLS alone is hard enough.  But passing bonds for athletic facilities is nearly impossible. 

It is what it is.

 

Hey tell them to move to Melissa, I assure you Melissa will have open arms waiting. 

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3 minutes ago, bigorange said:

Hey tell them to move to Melissa, I assure you Melissa will have open arms waiting. 

There’s a reason ETX lags behind in growth rate from the rest of the state. 

It’s not the pine trees.  

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6 hours ago, Mavchamp said:

I could go on a really long rant about the how’s and why’s behind the failure of most bonds in ETX.

But why mince words?  I’ll just point out the elephant in the room: 

Old white people have no interest in paying for facilities used by brown and black students.  

They will give OTHER reasons as to why they vote NO….but make no mistake… the R-word is what it boils down to for a lot of ETX districts. Especially the ETX 5A districts.

8 of the 10 ETX 5A districts are minority districts.  Passing bonds for SCHOOLS alone is hard enough.  But passing bonds for athletic facilities is nearly impossible. 

It is what it is.

 

We had this discussion several years ago so I won't get you riled up this time like you got then.....we are taxed enough already.......like Ross Perot stated long ago, schools are for education......they don't need Taj Mahals for athletics......has zero to do with people being racist......you denigrate the vast majority of people in this region for no reason at all and with no evidence for your statement except your OWN opinion, which without evidence has no validity at all.........

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8 hours ago, Mavchamp said:

I could go on a really long rant about the how’s and why’s behind the failure of most bonds in ETX.

But why mince words?  I’ll just point out the elephant in the room: 

Old white people have no interest in paying for facilities used by brown and black students.  

They will give OTHER reasons as to why they vote NO….but make no mistake… the R-word is what it boils down to for a lot of ETX districts. Especially the ETX 5A districts.

8 of the 10 ETX 5A districts are minority districts.  Passing bonds for SCHOOLS alone is hard enough.  But passing bonds for athletic facilities is nearly impossible. 

It is what it is.

 

I will respectfully disagree with your opinion. 

I have relatives who are solidly in the it doesn’t benefit me and my kids are graduated crowd; their lack of interest has nothing to do with race.

Your experiences are different than mine so you have seen things I have not.

My example is one you’ve most likely also seen.

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3 hours ago, RETIREDFAN1 said:

We had this discussion several years ago so I won't get you riled up this time like you got then.....we are taxed enough already.......like Ross Perot stated long ago, schools are for education......they don't need Taj Mahals for athletics......has zero to do with people being racist......you denigrate the vast majority of people in this region for no reason at all and with no evidence for your statement except your OWN opinion, which without evidence has no validity at all.........

Great post, as always.  I agree with what you have stated.  To add to the conversation, what are the chances an athletic department gets a return on its investment.  How many tickets do you have to sell, and how many playoff games do you have to host to pay for the stadium.  I understand the community pride that comes with it.  But the last time I checked, that JUMBOTRON didn't raise test scores.  I do know Melissa has high academics, so I can't argue that.

However, I do believe facilities, like indoor facilities, can benefit the district as a whole.  Just curious though, why does a school like Henderson have one, and a perennial power like Gilmer not???  And that my friends is where you will find the answer to most of what is being said on here.

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6 hours ago, RETIREDFAN1 said:

We had this discussion several years ago so I won't get you riled up this time like you got then.....we are taxed enough already.......like Ross Perot stated long ago, schools are for education......they don't need Taj Mahals for athletics......has zero to do with people being racist......you denigrate the vast majority of people in this region for no reason at all and with no evidence for your statement except your OWN opinion, which without evidence has no validity at all.........

These schools struggle get bonds passed for schools. Not even talking about athletic facilities. 

Districts in ETX have trouble replacing schools that are 60, 70, even 90 years old.

And I’ll admit it’s an opinion about it being racist…. But all you have to do is attend these public information meetings, listen to the public discourse and mostly read comments on social media and it doesn’t take a doctorate to see that some of it is veiled in racism.  

I was actively involved in the Marshall bond in 2015 that took 2 tries to pass.  I definitely heard racist comments.  And I’m white. So it’s not like I was looking for it. 

Ask Mr P, who works with Longview ISD if he has experienced that with their bonds.  Can almost guarantee he has.

Im not saying all districts… or all people are having the problem.  I’m just saying it’s a factor for some districts. 

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Just now, Mavchamp said:

These schools struggle get bonds passed for schools. Not even talking about athletic facilities. 

Districts in ETX have trouble replacing schools that are 60, 70, even 90 years old.

And I’ll admit it’s an opinion about it being racist…. But all you have to do is attend these public information meetings, listen to the public discourse and mostly read comments on social media and it doesn’t take a doctorate to see that it’s veiled in racism.  
 

I was actively involved in the Marshall bond in 2015 that took 2 tries to pass.  Indefinitely heard racist comments. 

Ask Mr P, who works with Longview ISD if he has experienced that with their bonds. 

Im not saying all districts… or all people are having the problem   I’m just saying it’s a factor for some districts.  

 

 

Cool....I just wanted it made clear that racism has very little, if anything, to do with whether someone supports a bond or not.....the MAIN factor is that people are tired of being taxed, retaxed, and taxed yet again for things that are irrelevant.....I'll be the first one in line to vote for a bond to build a new science lab or library......I will never vote for one that builds new athletic facilities or a new band hall......schools are for education......

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On 4/11/2023 at 2:57 PM, Mr. P said:

Which inevitably leads to the how come we don't have new industries coming here/how come our grandkids moved to the suburbs/how come our town is dying consequences. 

That's why most districts in this area have at least one campus if not several that are dumps. They were old twenty years ago. New flooring and fresh paint can only do so much.

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5 minutes ago, VerumDixit said:

Between the indifference of the communities and the inevitability of the coming voucher system, all of these rural communities will putting the nails in their own coffins.

It’s amazing to me that something so wildly unpopular by the overwhelming majority can be forced into existence because a vocal (and rich) minority has the ear of the party in control. 

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21 minutes ago, Mavchamp said:

While it can’t be blamed as the sole reason some bonds fail… it can’t be eliminated as a factor either.  

And it is such a minor factor that if  the ONLY people voting against a bond were those who were doing so because of racism, no bond would ever fail........

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"I heard racist comments therefore no bond is ever passed in ETX because of racism"

 

Dude........

 

Also the young "black and brown" families you speak of outnumber the old white folks in just about all of these communities.  Before I retired I was at an East Texas HS that for every one white student there were 8 kids of color.  We could not get a bond passed there either.   But it was not because of racism.

 

Also East Texas is the same as any other rural part of the state.  The only places really growing are the areas within a 90 minute drive of DFW, Houston, SA, and Austin.   

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1 hour ago, RETIREDFAN1 said:

Cool....I just wanted it made clear that racism has very little, if anything, to do with whether someone supports a bond or not.....the MAIN factor is that people are tired of being taxed, retaxed, and taxed yet again for things that are irrelevant.....I'll be the first one in line to vote for a bond to build a new science lab or library......I will never vote for one that builds new athletic facilities or a new band hall......schools are for education......

This comment is predicated on the fact that no extracurricular activities contribute to the education the kids are receiving in the district. If a band hall, or theatre performance center, or field house, or stadium, or gym becomes too small or too worn to provide an adequate space for experiential education for the students of the city where you reside, by voting no on those bonds you are taking those opportunities away from those students. Educators, coaches, and fine arts teachers will stop working in those districts, families will move, businesses will stay out and property values will decrease. Fact is, most bonds are relatively cheap for all property owners in the area and those who are against additional taxes continue to vote against them because it's the only tax they feel like they can control. Your real gripe is with the appraisal districts that the state govt continues to allow to tax us out of our properties. Abbott has the opportunity to handle that issue in the current leg session, but chooses to redirect all of the attention to vouchers and vilify public education rather than point out the actual crooks. 

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1 hour ago, Mavchamp said:

Im not saying all districts… or all people are having the problem.  I’m just saying it’s a factor for some districts. 

Depending on how deep you want to take this...  if you compile a list of districts with successful bond elections in the last 10 years, you find:
          1.) Most of those districts are not minority-majority student populations. 
          2.) Most of these districts are not over 70 percent economically-disadvantaged. 

No, I'm sure it's not solely because of overt racism. But the fact remains that the majority of districts who pass large bond elections are homogeneous and predominantly affluent. 

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1 hour ago, RETIREDFAN1 said:

Cool....I just wanted it made clear that racism has very little, if anything, to do with whether someone supports a bond or not.....the MAIN factor is that people are tired of being taxed, retaxed, and taxed yet again for things that are irrelevant.....I'll be the first one in line to vote for a bond to build a new science lab or library......I will never vote for one that builds new athletic facilities or a new band hall......schools are for education......

Whew, dang, sad. 

The personal monetary consequence you’ll experience is next to zilch.  You and others like you are exactly why Marshall and Longview, etc don’t have nice athletic facilities.

Why not let your coaches and athletes have nice facilities the whole community WILL BE proud of?

Ultimately, you’d like it too, guarantee.

It’s embarrassing for folks to go to the ballpark in Carthage to play the Bulldogs there.

Bitter & Co fixed that by building a new baseball and softball park behind our football field, field house and indoor practice facility.

Everyone who attends a football, baseball or softball game at Carthage will be impressed and will know CISD cares about their kids.

You go to other places with sorry athletics complexes and you’ll probably have a different opinion about that school district. 

Edited by HearEmaGrowlin
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30 minutes ago, 2wedge said:

This comment is predicated on the fact that no extracurricular activities contribute to the education the kids are receiving in the district. If a band hall, or theatre performance center, or field house, or stadium, or gym becomes too small or too worn to provide an adequate space for experiential education for the students of the city where you reside, by voting no on those bonds you are taking those opportunities away from those students. Educators, coaches, and fine arts teachers will stop working in those districts, families will move, businesses will stay out and property values will decrease. Fact is, most bonds are relatively cheap for all property owners in the area and those who are against additional taxes continue to vote against them because it's the only tax they feel like they can control. Your real gripe is with the appraisal districts that the state govt continues to allow to tax us out of our properties. Abbott has the opportunity to handle that issue in the current leg session, but chooses to redirect all of the attention to vouchers and vilify public education rather than point out the actual crooks. 

For some students those extra curricular activities not only drive them to pass their classes…. But keeps them in school. 

So saying they are pointless is ridiculous. 

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