5A Division I Region II Semi-Finals: Longview vs Lancaster

[WolverBean]

21 minutes ago, JohnnyFootball said:

Yet King beat him with one of our mediocre teams. 

Wasnt that tatums sophomore year and hales jr 

[JohnnyFootball]

Just now, WolverBean said:

Wasnt that tatums sophomore year and hales jr 

Yep. So with very young talent, King beat him in a year they won state. Winning state in Arkansas means nothing to our situation. 

[WolverBean]

11 minutes ago, JohnnyFootball said:

Yep. So with very young talent, King beat him in a year they won state. Winning state in Arkansas means nothing to our situation. 

True well dunno who people think we would replace king with for any better results 

[Mavchamp]

12 minutes ago, WolverBean said:

True well dunno who people think we would replace king with for any better results 

That's the thing....what if 99% of all other coaches produce LESS than King?  What a scary gamble.

I understand the frustration......but there's a lot more room to fall backwards than there is room to go forward.

Right now it's sexy to live in the suburbs of large metro areas.  No one wants to live IN Dallas or IN Houston.... they want to live in affluent suburbs of all the Tx metro areas.  Westlake, Allen, Frisco, Spring, Cibolo....etc....

Recruiting someone to ETX and keeping them here is going to be tough.....no matter how much money.  People like the amenities of the city.  Keeping a coach long term in 5A or 6A is going to be a hard sell.  Finding guys like King that stay is hard.

[Mavchamp]

10 hours ago, LoboFan07 said:

You know I'm a massive King fan. I said back in the late 2000s and I've continued to say such.

That said, we can be at a high level and still have games come down to coaching. We can be at this high level and still question things that are going on.

King isn't going anywhere until he's ready to go. So people wanting that are just blind to situation. He is the greatest coach we have ever had, and he is writing his name into the record books with every single victory now on a state level.

But King has his faults, and it is known to every single Longview fan that watches every single game. There's a lot of playoff losses that we've had that the team was simply better. Pflugerville, Lake Travis, Denton Ryan. You go up against teams some times that you just do not match up well with.

Last night and even last year was not that case. 2022 was as write home of a state championship as you've ever seen in Longview lore. Everyone will say ohhhh it's Aledo. I don't care. We were up two scores and went conservative and got shut out in the second half. Do I think we're a state championship team this year without Tatum? Probably not. Are we a state semi-final team again? Certainly. Longview was dominating Lancaster in that first half, and guess what, we got conservative. Again.

1:00 to go and just like in the 2005 loss to South Garland, they give the ball to a sophomore for no reason. Difference this year, we gave it to a sophomore back that is known for fumbling. All he did last year on the freshman team was fumble. All he has done this year, outside of two runs this year, was fumble.

It's just mind boggling some of the decision making that goes on, and the play calling that goes on, when ever single person from the stands can see what needs to happen. First half, unreal play calling. Using the tight ends that we're known for. Trusting in your quarterback to move the ball. Second half, nadda. Let's run right at their biggest defensive guy every single play.

This idea that we could return to mediocrity though is just ridiculous to me. Longview was not mediocre before King. Were we making run like we have recently? Obviously not. But we weren't some scrub program. We were making runs here and there, we were in the district title talk nearly every single year. There's always going to be a chance with the next coach that comes in. But the foundation that King and company have set is very very high and has been done very very well. Maybe the next coach takes us to the next level that King has been on the cusp of for the past 20 years.

Again, King is a great coach. His level of consistency in 5A/6A football in East Texas is completely unmatched. But he deserves to get criticized just as much as the next guy when the ball is placed at his feet.

Is what it is. Onto most likely 6A, where for whatever reason we've had more success overall than we have in 5A.

I agree 100%.  Criticizing and critiquing comes with the territory.  Had Longview ripped that handoff for 80 yards instead of a fumble....... King would have been called a genius for calling that play.  But criticizing and asking for a guys job are two different things.

Lord knows I've had my opinions about our past coaches....good (Southern), bad (Richters), and Ugly (you already know).  But I praise when it's deserved too.

As far as mediocrity.....I don't think anyone is thinking Longview would become a (4-6), (5-5), or (6-4) team with a coaching change.  That's simply not happening.  But what if seasons started looking more like (10-1), (9-2), (8-4).  A tougher non-district.... added with a tougher 6A district..... and then 2 deep and done type thing.  That would most definitely be mediocre by Lobo standards.  And not far from what we saw from Longview prior to King. 

If (11-2) has some melting down asking for his job....how would consistent 9-2 or 9-3 seasons settle in for Lobo Nation?  I'm thinking not very well. 

Just seems real dicey asking to replace a coach that consistently makes quarterfnal and semifinal appearances.  

Now....asking for an OC to take over the play calling...... that might be a conversation worth having.

[HearEmaGrowlin]

So, I have thought about this for a bit and want to tell Lobo fans why I’m for Longview going with a new HC.

For many years, Carthage had a pretty dang successful HC who held the record for wins, playoff wins, etc

He took us to a state championship game in 1991 with a team that had massive amounts of talent on both sides of the ball.

Our offense was eerily similar to what Longview runs today.  Pretty vanilla, strong, strong running game and very solid defense.

We won a good bit, and were for the most part consistently good we just never could win state.

King has won state once and much like our previous “legendary” HC always wasted tons of talent.

Sleepy plateaued and King has plateaued.

I understand appreciating what you have and being afraid your program will take a step back.

However, if we’d been stuck with our previous coach we never would’ve won 9 titles, to this point.

We floundered for a few years and had bad seasons, but we found the right guy and have been celebrating ever since.

The same thing can happen for Longview.

King has built a very good program, but can’t consistently lead Longview to its full potential.

King did do that one time, but his own deficiencies are what is keeping Longview from greatness.

It stinks the man leading your program is the same person keeping you from reaching your ultimate goal, and everyone knows it.

It’s definitely a risk, but King has wasted so many players and years.

I just hate seeing Longview rarely live up to its potential when the sky is the limit for the Lobos.

[ericflair]

38 minutes ago, HearEmaGrowlin said:

So, I have thought about this for a bit and want to tell Lobo fans why I’m for Longview going with a new HC.

For many years, Carthage had a pretty dang successful HC who held the record for wins, playoff wins, etc

He took us to a state championship game in 1991 with a team that had massive amounts of talent on both sides of the ball.

Our offense was eerily similar to what Longview runs today.  Pretty vanilla, strong, strong running game and very solid defense.

We won a good bit, and were for the most part consistently good we just never could win state.

King has won state once and much like our previous “legendary” HC always wasted tons of talent.

Sleepy plateaued and King has plateaued.

I understand appreciating what you have and being afraid your program will take a step back.

However, if we’d been stuck with our previous coach we never would’ve won 9 titles, to this point.

We floundered for a few years and had bad seasons, but we found the right guy and have been celebrating ever since.

The same thing can happen for Longview.

King has built a very good program, but can’t consistently lead Longview to its full potential.

King did do that one time, but his own deficiencies are what is keeping Longview from greatness.

It stinks the man leading your program is the same person keeping you from reaching your ultimate goal, and everyone knows it.

It’s definitely a risk, but King has wasted so many players and years.

I just hate seeing Longview rarely live up to its potential when the sky is the limit for the Lobos.

Thought Bickham was after Reynolds

[cotton84]

4 minutes ago, ericflair said:

Thought Bickham was after Reynolds

He was 3rd after

[HearEmaGrowlin]

10 minutes ago, ericflair said:

Thought Bickham was after Reynolds

Bickham was part of the floundering after Reynolds.

Bickham was ok, but not a great era for Carthage.

[gtee2]

8 hours ago, PantherNation2015 said:

This

Damn...I admit it. You were right sir

[Lobohooperstarter07]

20 years only 1 state championship and only  3 state championship appearances is wild lol, how long y’all want him as head coach? For another 10 years, 15 years? Yall are wild lol

[Grainraiser]

51 minutes ago, Lobohooperstarter07 said:

20 years only 1 state championship and only  3 state championship appearances is wild lol, how long y’all want him as head coach? For another 10 years, 15 years? Yall are wild lol

Who you gonna hire that is going to do better. 

[JohnnyFootball]

2 hours ago, Lobohooperstarter07 said:

20 years only 1 state championship and only  3 state championship appearances is wild lol, how long y’all want him as head coach? For another 10 years, 15 years? Yall are wild lol

Considering before him Longview had 1 title with 1 other appearance in all the years, the fact that he has 1 title and 3 appearances is pretty good. He’s literally outperformed Longview’s entire history. 

Now, if you buy into the notion that suddenly in 2004 Longview was flooded with the most talent in the state, I guess you could say King just got lucky to take over then. 

[JohnnyFootball]

1 hour ago, Grainraiser said:

Who you gonna hire that is going to do better. 

Still waiting on an answer to this. 

[HearEmaGrowlin]

John King is not the only good coach inhaling oxygen all day every day.

if the administration is too scared to change head coaches maybe just get an OC/QB coach and take those duties away from King, because that’s the elephant in the room no one wants to address.

You can keep winning district and 90% of your games, thinking this is the year and lose in the playoffs and be underwhelmed or possibly find a coach who knows how to utilize the players at his disposal.

King never gets all of the potential out of the players he has, because of his offense and they never develop quarterbacks.

We went through very similar times as Longview has been under King, and the after has been light years better.

If you were to make a change at HC you don’t have to get a proven coach for things to improve.

Surratt was a really good offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach at T High not a John Kay, etc.  

We went from “Oh gosh, it’s 3rd down and 15.  They know we have to pass here and our QB can’t hit the broad side of a barn.”, to converting 4th and 15 from our own 23 yard line in the state championship game.

Went from very little confidence to no one can stop us and 4th downs don’t phase us even in title games.

That’s probably another problem.  

Y’all deep down don’t expect to win and that comes from leadership.  

A couple of folks laughing at the example I’ve given..that’s just sticking your head in the sand and not wanting to think there could be another more prosperous route the Lobos can take.

Carthage hit the jackpot and King has built a solid program that would be very enticing for many coaches.

Longview could hit the jackpot if they’d only try.

I believe Longview can win championships often.  

If you want a name, how about Timpson’s HC & Staff?

[SmoakyBandito]

35 minutes ago, HearEmaGrowlin said:

Longview could hit the jackpot if they’d only try.

I believe Longview can win championships often.

Couple of things.

Lol at someone saying Jeff Traylor has not proven he could win on the 6a level in HS football. Could he go to the worst schools in the state and win titles? No. But give him talent and he will win. Put him at Longview and they are on their way winning back to back titles in 5a DI right now.

But I also agree with some others from Longview. Becareful what you wish for. Look at Marshall, Lufkin, JT and others in ETX. It can go south quick. Jon King is a sure thing. I actually think what other people have stated is a fantastic idea, find a young smart coordinator and let him run your offense. Have somebody handle your situational football. Train some guys. King runs an awesome program. Let him manage. He obviously connects with the kids. That won’t be easy for any coach to come to Longview Texas and do that.

And for everybody bringing up Surratt. Just stop. You gotta be dumb to think he doesn’t win at any level of HS football with average to above average talent. Ask yourself this. What if instead of coming to Carthage in 2008, he took over Texas High’s program? They were rolling when he was there.

Last thing. Carthage faithful should just be happy Carthage got extremely lucky with Surratt. 1-9 back to back seasons after Sleepy if I remember correctly. Bickham struggling to make playoffs with super talented groups. Even missed playoffs. On the way to being a below average program stuck in the mud. This is what it is at most HS in the state. Top managers like King are a rare breed. If it was easy everybody would be doing it.

[HearEmaGrowlin]

4 minutes ago, SmoakyBandito said:

Couple of things.

Lol at someone saying Jeff Traylor has not proven he could win on the 6a level in HS football. Could he go to the worst schools in the state and win titles? No. But give him talent and he will win. Put him at Longview and they are on their way winning back to back titles in 5a DI right now.

But I also agree with some others from Longview. Becareful what you wish for. Look at Marshall, Lufkin, JT and others in ETX. It can go south quick. Jon King is a sure thing. I actually think what other people have stated is a fantastic idea, find a young smart coordinator and let him run your offense. Have somebody handle your situational football. Train some guys. King runs an awesome program. Let him manage. He obviously connects with the kids. That won’t be easy for any coach to come to Longview Texas and do that.

And for everybody bringing up Surratt. Just stop. You gotta be dumb to think he doesn’t win at any level of HS football with average to above average talent. Ask yourself this. What if instead of coming to Carthage in 2008, he took over Texas High’s program? They were rolling when he was there.

Last thing. Carthage faithful should just be happy Carthage got extremely lucky with Surratt. 1-9 back to back seasons after Sleepy if I remember correctly. Bickham struggling to make playoffs with super talented groups. Even missed playoffs. On the way to being a below average program stuck in the mud. This is what it is at most HS in the state. Top managers like King are a rare breed. If it was easy everybody would be doing it.

I agree with everything you said and I too believe bringing in an OC/QB coach is a good route to take.

I also said there’s definitely risk in moving on from King, while also saying he is a sure thing; sure to win district, lose in the playoffs and very rarely hit his squad’s full potential.

Carthage got lucky and hit the jackpot.

King has Longview’s program in a great spot.  To think top coaches wouldn’t love to be the HC at Longview is really quite goofy. LISD would have lots of options to choose from, because of what King has done with the program.

King is a really good coach who has hit his ceiling, that’s all there is to it. 

[LoboFan80]

I like King but he needs to give up play calling duties to someone else. That one change could go a long way 

[HearEmaGrowlin]

1 minute ago, LoboFan80 said:

I like King but he needs to give up play calling duties to someone else. That one change could go a long way 

Agreed.

[cowboyandchrist]

6 hours ago, HearEmaGrowlin said:

I agree with everything you said and I too believe bringing in an OC/QB coach is a good route to take.

I also said there’s definitely risk in moving on from King, while also saying he is a sure thing; sure to win district, lose in the playoffs and very rarely hit his squad’s full potential.

Carthage got lucky and hit the jackpot.

King has Longview’s program in a great spot.  To think top coaches wouldn’t love to be the HC at Longview is really quite goofy. LISD would have lots of options to choose from, because of what King has done with the program.

King is a really good coach who has hit his ceiling, that’s all there is to it. 

I have been saying for years that King needs offensive coordinator and QB coach. With Longview speed and athleticism could you imagine what a legit dual QB could do. 

[BackinBlack]

On 11/19/2023 at 7:58 PM, MattStepp said:

Serious question, why would the DFW media heavily cover Longview? The TV stations dont get seen in Longview...the DMN probably has minimal circulation in Longview, so why would they cover Longview more than just a passing mention when they play an area school? Would you expect the Longview News-Journal to feature coverage of Forney? Of course not...

Because Longview is Loved by The Dallas media… I view Longview as an East Texas Hub for Great Football.

Year in and out….

[JohnnyFootball]

2 hours ago, LoboFan80 said:

I like King but he needs to give up play calling duties to someone else. That one change could go a long way 

Who do you think calls plays?

[JohnnyFootball]

1 hour ago, cowboyandchrist said:

I have been saying for years that King needs offensive coordinator and QB coach. With Longview speed and athleticism could you imagine what a legit dual QB could do. 

Um, that is literally the job of Chris Vallery.

Where did people get the idea that King calls plays?

[LoboFan80]

2 hours ago, JohnnyFootball said:

Who do you think calls plays?

So King is not calling any of these plays ? The things he say after the game about what he decided at different moments leads me to believe he does

Edited November 27, 2023 by LoboFan80

[cotton84]

16 minutes ago, LoboFan80 said:

So King is not calling any of these plays ? The things he say after the game about what he decided at different moments leads me to believe he does

When the QB goes to the sideline for a play, he goes to King.  During timeouts when Longview has the ball, King tells the team the play before they go back out.   Now, that being said, he may have someone in his headset, telling him what play to run.