4A DII Carthage vs. 6A San Benito

[BevBrownJr]

1 hour ago, HearEmaGrowlin said:

Carthage has had plenty of speed in the secondary and sometimes very elite speed in the secondary, but there again not every year.

Hicks who was an absolute speed demon went to Oklahoma State on a track scholarship, made La Vega look like they were running in sand.

Even the DeSoto’s, etc don’t have guys who run like Hicks and definitely not every year.

But, I do agree with the gist of what you’re saying.

Last year, our secondary team speed wasn’t great, not bad just not as good as we’ve had before.

Hicks eventually transferred from the Okie State track team to LSU’s.

[HearEmaGrowlin]

38 minutes ago, cotton84 said:

Hicks was a real good athlete, but in high school he was probably a 10.7 - 10.8 100 meter man. Moochie ran 10.7 as his best, I believe. 
Most every year, Desoto will have several guys on their team who can run that or better.  
And a defensive secondary normally consists or at least 4 guys, not just one. 

Of course, two corners and two safeties not just one guy can be fast and you have a fast secondary.

I’m just saying smaller schools can also have extremely rare talents not just the North Shores and Duncanvilles, etc.

KJ is going to be a five star and one of the top RB’s in the nation, if not #1.  Keaontay was also way up there, #1 in Texas, and top 10 nationally.

Dwight Smith, holy smokes.

Carthage consistently has more top tier talent across the team than any 4A team should.

[MattStepp]

3 minutes ago, HearEmaGrowlin said:

Of course, two corners and two safeties not just one guy can be fast and you have a fast secondary.

I’m just saying smaller schools can also have extremely rare talents not just the North Shores and Duncanvilles, etc.

KJ is going to be a five star and one of the top RB’s in the nation, if not #1.  Keaontay was also way up there, #1 in Texas, and top 10 nationally.

Dwight Smith, holy smokes.

Carthage consistently has more top tier talent across the team than any 4A team should.

What could have been with Dwight Smith...freakishly good

[HearEmaGrowlin]

1 minute ago, MattStepp said:

What could have been with Dwight Smith...freakishly good

Oh man, Matt, we wish he’d been here at least two years.

He was a freak and that was the beginning of the Surratt Era.  Had Smith come along a few years later he’d be much more known and would’ve had 50 offers.  Wish he’d not blown out his knee in the TCU spring game. 

[puttjones99]

2 hours ago, Lion7000 said:

Compete most definitely win a bit of a stretch! 

Let's agree to disagree

[MattStepp]

14 minutes ago, puttjones99 said:

Let's agree to disagree

One thing you have to consider with small schools playing 6A is depth...in a one game scenario a team can compete...but could 4A Carthage go through a ten game 6A schedule and endure the inevitable attrition...that lack of depth would obviously be a disadvantage 

[DAWG91]

4 hours ago, puttjones99 said:

I think Gunter would have beaten Carthage this past season.

There it is!  Thank you!

[puttjones99]

39 minutes ago, MattStepp said:

One thing you have to consider with small schools playing 6A is depth...in a one game scenario a team can compete...but could 4A Carthage go through a ten game 6A schedule and endure the inevitable attrition...that lack of depth would obviously be a disadvantage 

Matt, we were talking about if Carthage could have won 5ADII last year. I really pay attention to the minute details of the game and in my observation, regardless of class the starters play most of the game unless its a blowout. Depth doesn't come into play more than supreme confidence, not being afriad to compete, and giving everything you got. I played at Daingerfield and my son played on that Longview team that won 6A DII in '18. They subbed players about as much as we did at Daingerfield. My point was last year 3A DII Newton and 5A DII PNG, both played 4ADII WOS and beat them by a similar margin of victory. That let's me know there was a lot of parody in and between top tier teams in those classifications/divisions. School size doesn't matter you have to look at the program and how many kids are enthusiastically participating in football. Mount Pleasant had 3 times our enrollment and we beat them every year I was on varsity. I was never thinking MP's depth is going to be a problem for us, lol. We actually had more depth than they did

[PantherNation2015]

2 hours ago, cotton84 said:

Hicks was a real good athlete, but in high school he was probably a 10.7 - 10.8 100 meter man. Moochie ran 10.7 as his best, I believe. 
Most every year, Desoto will have several guys on their team who can run that or better.  
And a defensive secondary normally consists or at least 4 guys, not just one. 

Hicks was not the best example in this story IMO. He was a track star, but was not the best DB.

[puttjones99]

4 hours ago, cotton84 said:

Defensive line depth(fresh legs) and lack of elite speed in the secondary would normally be where a Carthage, a Gilmer, a P G will show weakness in 5A Div. 1 when trying to win it all. 
In 6A, the above plus the need for one or two elite linemen. 

I feel elite speed in our East Texas elite teams secondary is our team's strength ...when I was at Daingerfield no one in our secondary was slower than mid 4.5s 3 of those guys could go 4.4 or better!! Carthage's trenches are blessed with size in the bloodlines...PG too, but I can't say we have depth in the DLs in East Texas. Our Daingerfield team was huge last year. My lil' cousin Devin Gholston is 6'3" 335 and Anderson is 6'7" 385...we have another huge interior player as well Ian Thigpen 6'3" 295, and Nick Wallace is 5'11" 280. All of these guys are coming back!!!

[MattStepp]

1 hour ago, puttjones99 said:

Matt, we were talking about if Carthage could have won 5ADII last year. I really pay attention to the minute details of the game and in my observation, regardless of class the starters play most of the game unless its a blowout. Depth doesn't come into play more than supreme confidence, not being afriad to compete, and giving everything you got. I played at Daingerfield and my son played on that Longview team that won 6A DII in '18. They subbed players about as much as we did at Daingerfield. My point was last year 3A DII Newton and 5A DII PNG, both played 4ADII WOS and beat them by a similar margin of victory. That let's me know there was a lot of parody in and between top tier teams in those classifications/divisions. School size doesn't matter you have to look at the program and how many kids are enthusiastically participating in football. Mount Pleasant had 3 times our enrollment and we beat them every year I was on varsity. I was never thinking MP's depth is going to be a problem for us, lol. We actually had more depth than they did

It's not really about subbing players within the course of a game as much as it is when you get a guy hurt (which happens during the course of an 10-game season) how big is the drop from the starter to the backup? Add that in to playing a full 10-game schedule against a 6A schedule vs a 4A-D2 schedule results in general in more attrition...its all hypothetical but I think if you take a big picture look at things its a logical and likely assumption that a team takes more of a physical beating playing a full 6A schedule vs a 4A schedule...there's always exceptions to every rule and Carthage is one of them which is why I believe they'd be playoff team in 22 of 32 6A districts..

Edited July 30 by MattStepp

[Bluebonnets]

There are a large number of comments on here about which team was the best for Coach Surratt.  Based on the following statistics, it's pretty hard to argue against the 2022 team:

2022 Season Bulldog stats 

 

out of 768 minutes (16 games X 48 minutes per game) playing time - Carthage only trailed four minutes two seconds - 6:34 to 4:32 of the fourth quarter vs. Glen Rose 

 

Total first quarter points for the season Carthage 257 Opponents 14

 

Average half time score - Carthage 32 Opponents 3

 

Number of Opponents that failed to score in the first quarter - 14

 

Number of Opponents that failed to score in the entire first half - 11 

 

5 shutouts - largest number in Coach Surratt's 17 years  - 2021 team was the only team with 4

 

Shutout in 2022 championship game - only shutout in all 11 man 2022 championship games - shutouts in championship games are rare - this was one of only 3 shutouts  in all 11 man championship games for all classifications for the past 17 years 

 

Victory margin in 2022 championship game - 42 points - largest of all the 2022 championship games -only 4 championship games for all classifications in the last 10 years with a victory margin of at least 42 points - Carthage has 2 of those 4 - 42 points over Wimberley in 2022 and 56 point win over Gilmer in 2020

[89Falcon]

16 hours ago, DAWG91 said:

It really comes down to numbers and the ability to substitute fresh legs into a game.  This is why we have classifications.  I'm sure there's a 1 or 2A program out there that would say the same about taking on the Mighty Carthage Bulldogs!  I'm ready for football season lol.

That is definitely a factor. And I once thought that the numbers and attrition for a 6A would be a task too great for a team like Carthage. I have since had a more inside look at several 6A districts and found that most schools (especially those not at the top end) really don’t have much or drastically better number's than Carthage and definitely don’t have more D1 caliber athletes.
 

At no point did I say Carthage could win 6A but there is no doubt that they would contend for the playoffs in nearly every district (less those previously mentioned). 

[HearEmaGrowlin]

7 hours ago, PantherNation2015 said:

Hicks was not the best example in this story IMO. He was a track star, but was not the best DB.

Agree 100%! Is ball skills were lacking! However, when he ran down LV running backs to keep them from scoring, his pure speed was the difference maker.

[HearEmaGrowlin]

5 hours ago, Bluebonnets said:

There are a large number of comments on here about which team was the best for Coach Surratt.  Based on the following statistics, it's pretty hard to argue against the 2022 team:

2022 Season Bulldog stats 

 

out of 768 minutes (16 games X 48 minutes per game) playing time - Carthage only trailed four minutes two seconds - 6:34 to 4:32 of the fourth quarter vs. Glen Rose 

 

Total first quarter points for the season Carthage 257 Opponents 14

 

Average half time score - Carthage 32 Opponents 3

 

Number of Opponents that failed to score in the first quarter - 14

 

Number of Opponents that failed to score in the entire first half - 11 

 

5 shutouts - largest number in Coach Surratt's 17 years  - 2021 team was the only team with 4

 

Shutout in 2022 championship game - only shutout in all 11 man 2022 championship games - shutouts in championship games are rare - this was one of only 3 shutouts  in all 11 man championship games for all classifications for the past 17 years 

 

Victory margin in 2022 championship game - 42 points - largest of all the 2022 championship games -only 4 championship games for all classifications in the last 10 years with a victory margin of at least 42 points - Carthage has 2 of those 4 - 42 points over Wimberley in 2022 and 56 point win over Gilmer in 2020

Cuff slinging that ball to Paddie and others, oh my gosh. 
What we have to remember when talking about Carthage competing in larger classifications is teams like Longview very rarely have a QB like Carthage seems to have every single year.

How does this happen?  SURRATT.

Sometimes there are very specific circumstances that can drive a team to greatness.  Carthage has that in Surratt & Co, while some larger schools just have a bunch of athletes. 
Will say it again and don’t really care what people think…….if Longview had Surratt they’d have nine state championships and not us.

Shoot, with Longview’s amount of athletes they’d be Aledo of the East just in a larger classification. 

 

[puttjones99]

7 hours ago, MattStepp said:

It's not really about subbing players within the course of a game as much as it is when you get a guy hurt (which happens during the course of an 10-game season) how big is the drop from the starter to the backup? Add that in to playing a full 10-game schedule against a 6A schedule vs a 4A-D2 schedule results in general in more attrition...its all hypothetical but I think if you take a big picture look at things its a logical and likely assumption that a team takes more of a physical beating playing a full 6A schedule vs a 4A schedule...there's always exceptions to every rule and Carthage is one of them which is why I believe they'd be playoff team in 22 of 32 6A districts..

I agree totally with what you're saying, there. 

[lionpride08]

On 7/28/2024 at 7:38 PM, Lion7000 said:

Part of it but being realistic as well.

Why is that? Because they are a 6a?

[lionpride08]

I went and watched a 6a playoff game this past season between Tomball and Cedar Hill... I could not believe these are the teams "6a" that everyone says that are so great. Sure a couple players had speed and a couple had size but they had absolutely no fundamentals. It was like watching a little league game but with bigger kids. I 100% believe without a doubt multiple 3a and 4a teams could have beaten these two teams.

[Lion7000]

1 hour ago, lionpride08 said:

Why is that? Because they are a 6a?

Depth and big boys that are in 6a. Compete definitely win not so much. There a reason why we have multiple classifications.

[lionpride08]

9 hours ago, Lion7000 said:

Depth and big boys that are in 6a. Compete definitely win not so much. There a reason why we have multiple classifications.

That does not mean a lot of 6a schools are good... back in 2016 Franklin beat Navasota 38-22 while Bryan High only beat them 28-14 and was tied going into the 4th quarter... a long td pass deep then a scoop and score in the final minutes is what gave bryan a 2 td win. Every one gets in the 6a hype when most are not even that much better. Sure you have the Westlake, Desoto, N Shore, Duncanville's ect. that are head and shoulders above everyone else. But not much can be said for the whole 6a class.

Edited July 31 by lionpride08

[lionpride08]

Make sure everyone comes back here after Carthage wins by 3tds.

[89Falcon]

10 hours ago, Lion7000 said:

Depth and big boys that are in 6a. Compete definitely win not so much. There a reason why we have multiple classifications.

Understood. There is definitely a reason for classifications. However, Carthage is an anomaly with no “like program” in 4A. 

[89Falcon]

54 minutes ago, lionpride08 said:

That does not mean a lot of 6a schools are good... back in 2016 Franklin beat Navasota 38-22 while Bryan High only beat them 28-14 and was tied going into the 4th quarter... a long td pass deep then a scoop and score in the final minutes is what gave bryan a 2 td win. Every one gets in the 6a hype when most are not even that much better. Sure you have the Westlake, Desoto, N Shore, Duncanville's ect. that are head and shoulders above everyone else. But not much can be said for the whole 6a class.

100%

[BevBrownJr]

17 hours ago, HearEmaGrowlin said:

Cuff slinging that ball to Paddie and others, oh my gosh. 
What we have to remember when talking about Carthage competing in larger classifications is teams like Longview very rarely have a QB like Carthage seems to have every single year.

How does this happen?  SURRATT.

Sometimes there are very specific circumstances that can drive a team to greatness.  Carthage has that in Surratt & Co, while some larger schools just have a bunch of athletes. 
Will say it again and don’t really care what people think…….if Longview had Surratt they’d have nine state championships and not us.

Shoot, with Longview’s amount of athletes they’d be Aledo of the East just in a larger classification. 

 

The “others” Cuff slung the ball to included Montrel Hatten, who is now at Oregon State.

[Lion7000]

2 hours ago, 89Falcon said:

Understood. There is definitely a reason for classifications. However, Carthage is an anomaly with no “like program” in 4A. 

Preaching to the choir. Surratt is the Goat and he like if Jason , Michael myers , Freddy & Thanos from the Marvel Universe had an awful baby! They just don’t die ( have a subpar season) and I relive the nightmare yearly. I am not going to lie I do heavy drinking during football season! Add insult to injury I am a Aggie and Dallas cowboy fan too! # Struggle  is real