Are We Losing Football?

[88YoePride]

Okay, maybe the title's a tad dramatic. Wanted am "attention grabber"...

So, I see issues like discipline brought up occadionally, or stuff like Pilot Point admins flat out saying they are (sic)"no longer a football school." I see or hear people mention... "trends" they see in player attitudes or program culture...

I'm just wondering - How many see issues in programs like less boys coming out for football, and for what reasons? They'd rather sit and play video games? Rather participate in lower/no-contact sports? Problems with the program, like a coach kids don't want to play for or no pride or excitement for the team?

And how do you deal with that? What do you try to do to get kids to want to play? I know it can be done. Look at Refugio. Herring was notorious for not just being strict and a "taskmaster", but just outright... How do I put this diplomatically... *Ahem* Abrasive. But Refugio annually had about 95 boys in high school, and over 80 of them would be playing ball for the guy. I was talking to someone today who pointed out that at their school, which had a historically successful football team, but had also developed a perenially recognized band program, boys would quit the team for getting yelled at or if they felt they were being worked too hard, but the band director was known for being a very hard-nosed disciplinarian who constantly berated his students and worked them hard, but band membership rose every year he's been there. Essentially, that the band geeks were tougher and more dedicated than the football players.

So, anyway, like I said, I'm just curious, is anyone else seeing or hearing about issues like this, and what would you suggest as possible solutions?

Edited September 10 by 88YoePride

[Lambo]

@Gen7Dragon has probably the most accurate description of whats going on.

[d0tc0m]

As a current coach and educator, I point straight back to the parents, in all honesty. You can point to a myriad of factors in culture, such as the narcissistic rise of social media and personal branding, the ubiquitous nature of e-sports/video gaming/streaming/etc., and the "live your truth" nonsense, and even the trickle-down effect of the transfer-portal culture in College athletics ... none of which were created by these kids, by the way, merely inherited. This is not an exhaustive list of issues, mind you.

BUT

In my personal experience in the classroom and on the field, the big problems get traced right back to the parents. Most of the time, issues arise when the parents bail their kids out from discipline and the work. The kid comes home, complains about the amount of work it takes to participate in a certain activity, or complains that a coach is doing his/her job and actually coaching/correcting the kid, or complains that a workout or practice was just too painful, or complains that they aren't getting enough playing time, etc., and then the parent believes its their job to bypass the student/athlete and take up the fight with the teacher/coach themselves.

It breeds so much entitlement and further narcissism into the students. It also gives them this hilariously false idea that they should never be uncomfortable in life, and that actually, their main goal should be building comfort for themselves and keeping themselves free of pain and heartbreak. One of the ancillary effects of this is you find students who are generally apathetic towards everything in life. They are non-committal and will bail on just about everything (sports, school, relationships, etc.) at the first sign of discomfort. They're terrified to try at anything, because trying means risk of failure and disappointment/heartbreak. This further lends itself to a sense of listlessness, which tends to develop into some semblance of anxiety and depression.

The kids don't just grow out of this pattern of thought, either. They grow up and still look for their parents to bail them out and solve their problems for them. It's not hard to see this creates weak men, and weak men create a long, long, long laundry list of problems for themselves and the world around them and the world at large.

[d0tc0m]

The other side of the coin is the child/student/athlete who is raised well by their parents.

Those kids are respectful, coachable, disciplined, are tremendous teammates and display high aptitude for leadership. They see discomfort, failure and disappointment as a mere product of the process of achieving any goal, and they are unafraid of those things. These kids/athletes not only play with a high level of confidence, because of their commitment to a process, team and a goal bigger than themselves, they also move through their daily life with that same confidence. They tend to display a higher sense of selflessness, while also executing decisiveness and elevated agency.

These kids are a joy to have in a program, and they are the bedrock of building and sustaining culture. The goal is to get all students/athletes toward this level, and in my experience, that's near impossible if mom and dad aren't on the same page, or you don't have a supportive administration.

[d0tc0m]

And I tell my athletes AND their parents all the time: I'm invested in a lot more than wins and losses, or building a certain athletic skill in their child. I'm invested in discipleship, I'm invested in loving on their kids and helping instill a sense of confidence in dealing with the world outside the context of their sport and their years of high school.

I always remind them that sports offers a unique opportunity to learn some really HIGH STAKES life lessons in a really LOW STAKES environment. Those are lessons everyone has to learn at one point or another, whether you want to or not, and the older you are when you learn them, the higher the stakes tend to be.

 

I'll get off the soapbox now.

[SmokedOut]

1 minute ago, d0tc0m said:

The other side of the coin is the child/student/athlete who is raised well by their parents.

Those kids are respectful, coachable, disciplined, are tremendous teammates and display high aptitude for leadership. They see discomfort, failure and disappointment as a mere product of the process of achieving any goal, and they are unafraid of those things. These kids/athletes not only play with a high level of confidence, because of their commitment to a process, team and a goal bigger than themselves, they also move through their daily life with that same confidence. They tend to display a higher sense of selflessness, while also executing decisiveness and elevated agency.

These kids are a joy to have in a program, and they are the bedrock of building and sustaining culture. The goal is to get all students/athletes toward this level, and in my experience, that's near impossible if mom and dad aren't on the same page, or you don't have a supportive administration.

You’re correct it all starts at home. My dad once told me that from 8-3:30 I belonged to the school and from 3:30 to whenever practice was over I belonged to my coach. He didn’t wanna hear any complaining. My wife and I took the same approach with our kids. All have had zero problems in school. Our boy is a favorite among the coaches. Not because he’s some stud athlete, but because he does what is asked of him without complaint and has a genuinely good attitude at school and in athletics. 

[Mr. P]

7 hours ago, Lambo said:

@Gen7Dragon has probably the most accurate description of whats going on.

Link? I skimmed through his recent posts and couldn't find anything...  

[d0tc0m]

14 minutes ago, SmokedOut said:

You’re correct it all starts at home. My dad once told me that from 8-3:30 I belonged to the school and from 3:30 to whenever practice was over I belonged to my coach. He didn’t wanna hear any complaining. My wife and I took the same approach with our kids. All have had zero problems in school. Our boy is a favorite among the coaches. Not because he’s some stud athlete, but because he does what is asked of him without complaint and has a genuinely good attitude at school and in athletics. 

Yeah, I think any coach worth their salt would say, Give me a team full of kids like this any day of the week. You can overcome all sorts of issues and adversity and lack of actual talent/skill if you have a team full of kids like this.

You also end up with a team that opposing coaches and fans will come up to you after a game and say something like, "We love playing against your kids."

Edited September 10 by d0tc0m

[88YoePride]

1 hour ago, d0tc0m said:

As a current coach and educator, I point straight back to the parents, in all honesty. You can point to a myriad of factors in culture, such as the narcissistic rise of social media and personal branding, the ubiquitous nature of e-sports/video gaming/streaming/etc., and the "live your truth" nonsense, and even the trickle-down effect of the transfer-portal culture in College athletics ... none of which were created by these kids, by the way, merely inherited. This is not an exhaustive list of issues, mind you.

BUT

In my personal experience in the classroom and on the field, the big problems get traced right back to the parents. Most of the time, issues arise when the parents bail their kids out from discipline and the work. The kid comes home, complains about the amount of work it takes to participate in a certain activity, or complains that a coach is doing his/her job and actually coaching/correcting the kid, or complains that a workout or practice was just too painful, or complains that they aren't getting enough playing time, etc., and then the parent believes its their job to bypass the student/athlete and take up the fight with the teacher/coach themselves.

It breeds so much entitlement and further narcissism into the students. It also gives them this hilariously false idea that they should never be uncomfortable in life, and that actually, their main goal should be building comfort for themselves and keeping themselves free of pain and heartbreak. One of the ancillary effects of this is you find students who are generally apathetic towards everything in life. They are non-committal and will bail on just about everything (sports, school, relationships, etc.) at the first sign of discomfort. They're terrified to try at anything, because trying means risk of failure and disappointment/heartbreak. This further lends itself to a sense of listlessness, which tends to develop into some semblance of anxiety and depression.

The kids don't just grow out of this pattern of thought, either. They grow up and still look for their parents to bail them out and solve their problems for them. It's not hard to see this creates weak men, and weak men create a long, long, long laundry list of problems for themselves and the world around them and the world at large.

Oddly enough, someone else I spoke to last night pointed out that the education system no longer holds kids to the standards previous generations grew up with. That we grew up with, "You don't do your assignment, you get a '0.' Now, students get second and third chances to turn in their schoolwork. And schools pass students they shouldn't, because they want a good rating and to keep getting government money. 

But yeah, I had one coach/AD tell me a few years back he was having a hard time finding coaches because no one wanted to teach, because they essentially couldn't discipline kids. They would rather take their talents to the private sector, get payed more money and not have to deal with bratty - or worse - kids. So then you're left with teachers who want to teach the kids to rebel against the system and question whether or not they're actually even male.

[d0tc0m]

4 minutes ago, 88YoePride said:

Oddly enough, someone else I spoke to last night pointed out that the education system no longer holds kids to the standards previous generations grew up with. That we grew up with, "You don't do your assignment, you get a '0.' Now, students get second and third chances to turn in their schoolwork. And schools pass students they shouldn't, because they want a good rating and to keep getting government money. 

But yeah, I had one coach/AD tell me a few years back he was having a hard time finding coaches because no one wanted to teach, because they essentially couldn't discipline kids. They would rather take their talents to the private sector, get payed more money and not have to deal with bratty - or worse - kids. So then you're left with teachers who want to teach the kids to rebel against the system and question whether or not they're actually even male.

Yeah, there could be some anecdotal truth to some of this. I teach/coach at a Christian private school, so we have different beliefs, different standards, different goals, different educational processes, etc. We have different relationships with the students and with the parents. We also don't answer to the state in any real capacity except maintaining certain certifications so our students can be accepted into state universities.

 

 

[88YoePride]

55 minutes ago, d0tc0m said:

Yeah, I think any coach worth their salt would say, Give me a team full of kids like this any day of the week. You can overcome all sorts of issues and adversity and lack of actual talent/skill if you have a team full of kids like this.

You also end up with a team that opposing coaches and fans will come up to you after a game and say something like, "We love playing against your kids."

Honesty, I'd rather lose with a team full of dedicated 2- players with a passion for the game than win with a bunch of 5-prima donnas. I've got hella respect for Tom Osbourne, who never had a top-five recruiting class, almost never had a superstar player, but his teams never won less than nine games in a season.

[88YoePride]

9 hours ago, Lambo said:

@Gen7Dragon has probably the most accurate description of whats going on.

Hopefully he'll see the tag and give his input. I'm interested to see what anybody has to say on the subject.

[blackngoldtiger]

1 hour ago, 88YoePride said:

Oddly enough, someone else I spoke to last night pointed out that the education system no longer holds kids to the standards previous generations grew up with. That we grew up with, "You don't do your assignment, you get a '0.' Now, students get second and third chances to turn in their schoolwork. And schools pass students they shouldn't, because they want a good rating and to keep getting government money. 

But yeah, I had one coach/AD tell me a few years back he was having a hard time finding coaches because no one wanted to teach, because they essentially couldn't discipline kids. They would rather take their talents to the private sector, get payed more money and not have to deal with bratty - or worse - kids. So then you're left with teachers who want to teach the kids to rebel against the system and question whether or not they're actually even male.

Talk to the powers to be at the state level. It's all levels from kindergarten to 12. My wife is a elementary teacher. She had one kid that would destroy the classroom throughout the school year, and the higher ups would tell her to make the kids get out of the classroom into the hallway and teach. Certain grade levels you can't discipline the kids. Some parents are in denial that their kid would act that way and don't want to deal with some of the teachers or principles. I asked a school board member what could be done and they said their hands were tied due to the state laws. Then add on top of it, these teachers have to get these kids ready for state test and the higher ups fail them. Then performce reviews are up in that time and you may have an example like I said.  It's a sinking ship to be honest. It all starts at home but if the state would let these schools have some lead way, I could see it getting better. 

[88YoePride]

29 minutes ago, blackngoldtiger said:

Talk to the powers to be at the state level. It's all levels from kindergarten to 12. My wife is a elementary teacher. She had one kid that would destroy the classroom throughout the school year, and the higher ups would tell her to make the kids get out of the classroom into the hallway and teach. Certain grade levels you can't discipline the kids. Some parents are in denial that their kid would act that way and don't want to deal with some of the teachers or principles. I asked a school board member what could be done and they said their hands were tied due to the state laws. Then add on top of it, these teachers have to get these kids ready for state test and the higher ups fail them. Then performce reviews are up in that time and you may have an example like I said.  It's a sinking ship to be honest. It all starts at home but if the state would let these schools have some lead way, I could see it getting better. 

Honestly, my post is more about how to get and keep boys excited about playing football.

[SmokedOut]

12 minutes ago, 88YoePride said:

Honestly, my post is more about how to get and keep boys excited about playing football.

It’s a lot bigger problem than just football man. I think people are just venting. I’m sure most of us on here are 30-50 years old. Some may be younger or older. Point is things just aren’t the same as they once were. I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel either. 

[TIMRIGGINS]

12 hours ago, 88YoePride said:

Okay, maybe the title's a tad dramatic. Wanted am "attention grabber"...

So, I see issues like discipline brought up occadionally, or stuff like Pilot Point admins flat out saying they are (sic)"no longer a football school." I see or hear people mention... "trends" they see in player attitudes or program culture...

I'm just wondering - How many see issues in programs like less boys coming out for football, and for what reasons? They'd rather sit and play video games? Rather participate in lower/no-contact sports? Problems with the program, like a coach kids don't want to play for or no pride or excitement for the team?

And how do you deal with that? What do you try to do to get kids to want to play? I know it can be done. Look at Refugio. Herring was notorious for not just being strict and a "taskmaster", but just outright... How do I put this diplomatically... *Ahem* Abrasive. But Refugio annually had about 95 boys in high school, and over 80 of them would be playing ball for the guy. I was talking to someone today who pointed out that at their school, which had a historically successful football team, but had also developed a perenially recognized band program, boys would quit the team for getting yelled at or if they felt they were being worked too hard, but the band director was known for being a very hard-nosed disciplinarian who constantly berated his students and worked them hard, but band membership rose every year he's been there. Essentially, that the band geeks were tougher and more dedicated than the football players.

So, anyway, like I said, I'm just curious, is anyone else seeing or hearing about issues like this, and what would you suggest as possible solutions?

Football is hard. People don't like hard. 

[d0tc0m]

9 minutes ago, SmokedOut said:

Point is things just aren’t the same as they once were. I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel either. 

 

This has been repeated over and over as each new generation comes along. Things are never going to be the way they once were, and that sentence could be true at any point in history looking backwards at previous generations.

I'll disagree about the light at the end of the tunnel a bit. I think if you look at things from a big zoomed out view, especially through the lens of any media outlet, things look irreversibly bad. And it's intentional for things to be construed that way.

But at the micro scale, when you are actually working with these kids and are around them, building relationships, mentoring, coaching, having conversations, etc., you find that this new wave of kids - Gen Z and the ones right on their heels (don't know if they have a name) - actually hate the way things are too. They despise the in-authenticity of this world just as much as I think a lot of us would say we do, and the irony is our generations (boomers, x'ers and millennials) are responsible for the way things are now. But these kids are craving genuineness in every aspect of their lives. They are interested in asking hard questions and hearing hard answers and hard truths. They want connection and community and authenticity. Most of them know their phones and social media et al are a major distraction and pointless objects in their lives, for example, they just have never lived a life without them.

They recognize this and will vocalize it. They just don't know how to fix it. They inherited these things at birth, and through the process of discovery, they're realizing its broken and superfluous and mostly vanity. They just haven't come of age enough to carry the influence to swing the pendulum back the other direction yet.

[tomlandry]

4 hours ago, d0tc0m said:

As a current coach and educator, I point straight back to the parents, in all honesty. You can point to a myriad of factors in culture, such as the narcissistic rise of social media and personal branding, the ubiquitous nature of e-sports/video gaming/streaming/etc., and the "live your truth" nonsense, and even the trickle-down effect of the transfer-portal culture in College athletics ... none of which were created by these kids, by the way, merely inherited. This is not an exhaustive list of issues, mind you.

BUT

In my personal experience in the classroom and on the field, the big problems get traced right back to the parents. Most of the time, issues arise when the parents bail their kids out from discipline and the work. The kid comes home, complains about the amount of work it takes to participate in a certain activity, or complains that a coach is doing his/her job and actually coaching/correcting the kid, or complains that a workout or practice was just too painful, or complains that they aren't getting enough playing time, etc., and then the parent believes its their job to bypass the student/athlete and take up the fight with the teacher/coach themselves.

It breeds so much entitlement and further narcissism into the students. It also gives them this hilariously false idea that they should never be uncomfortable in life, and that actually, their main goal should be building comfort for themselves and keeping themselves free of pain and heartbreak. One of the ancillary effects of this is you find students who are generally apathetic towards everything in life. They are non-committal and will bail on just about everything (sports, school, relationships, etc.) at the first sign of discomfort. They're terrified to try at anything, because trying means risk of failure and disappointment/heartbreak. This further lends itself to a sense of listlessness, which tends to develop into some semblance of anxiety and depression.

The kids don't just grow out of this pattern of thought, either. They grow up and still look for their parents to bail them out and solve their problems for them. It's not hard to see this creates weak men, and weak men create a long, long, long laundry list of problems for themselves and the world around them and the world at large.

Incredibly well said. Right on point. Thank you

Edited September 10 by tomlandry

[blackngoldtiger]

1 hour ago, 88YoePride said:

Honestly, my post is more about how to get and keep boys excited about playing football.

 

1 hour ago, SmokedOut said:

It’s a lot bigger problem than just football man. I think people are just venting. I’m sure most of us on here are 30-50 years old. Some may be younger or older. Point is things just aren’t the same as they once were. I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel either. 

I know your post is about football but like smoked said you can't really get an answer just for that without some other linear problems that are contributing to it and it starts at the lower levels is what I'm getting too. 

[corrigancamden09]

It just isn’t the same anymore … we going through the same thing at CC,  I’m not very popular in the stands on Friday nights, because I don’t mind speaking my mind on things ..  

one thing that is killing the programs is the parents ..  they sit in the stands and watch the coaches like a hawk , and if they get a lil too loud to their kid , they wanna bring him before the school board , and flat out crucify him in front of everyone.. 

one thing I’ve noticed is drastically changing , and I’ve been watching CC football since 95..   kids are weaker and smaller , and I believe that is from a lack of getting in that weight room and going to work!    
so many programs are struggling nowadays, simply because the parents have scared the coaches .. and it’s politics more than anything….  
a kid can spike his helmet on the field and start a brawl , and parents will stand there and say they better not say anything to my baby …. Smh 

cry baby parents = spoiled lazy kids with chips on their shoulders .  
 

I wish programs could bring back the bootcamp !  Half the kids on teams nowadays wouldn’t last 1 day in the old school bootcamp before 2 a days 

[88YoePride]

3 hours ago, SmokedOut said:

It’s a lot bigger problem than just football man. I think people are just venting. I’m sure most of us on here are 30-50 years old. Some may be younger or older. Point is things just aren’t the same as they once were. I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel either. 

It IS a lot bigger than football. Not arguing that. Just saying that my specific reason for this post in this venue was to address issues it causes with high school football programs, and ask what everyone thinks is - hopefully - effective ways to address it.

Honestly, one would hope that if you fix the school pride/spirit issue in the athletic program, that would set a precedent that would pour over into and affect the culture of the rest of the student body.

[Newtonres7586]

4 hours ago, blackngoldtiger said:

Talk to the powers to be at the state level. It's all levels from kindergarten to 12. My wife is an elementary teacher. She had one kid that would destroy the classroom throughout the school year, and the higher ups would tell her to make the kids get out of the classroom into the hallway and teach. Certain grade levels you can't discipline the kids. Some parents are in denial that their kid would act that way and don't want to deal with some of the teachers or principles. I asked a school board member what could be done and they said their hands were tied due to the state laws. Then add on top of it, these teachers have to get these kids ready for state test and the higher ups fail them. Then performce reviews are up in that time and you may have an example like I said.  It's a sinking ship to be honest. It all starts at home but if the state would let these schools have some lead way, I could see it getting better. 

I’m not giving our State Legislators a pass here, but I wonder how much of those foolish rules follow the money from the Federal Government. That old saying Would “He who Governs closest Governs Best” solve this or make things worse. It seems to me that it would be for the better. Would School choice make things better?

[88YoePride]

1 hour ago, corrigancamden09 said:

It just isn’t the same anymore … we going through the same thing at CC,  I’m not very popular in the stands on Friday nights, because I don’t mind speaking my mind on things ..  

one thing that is killing the programs is the parents ..  they sit in the stands and watch the coaches like a hawk , and if they get a lil too loud to their kid , they wanna bring him before the school board , and flat out crucify him in front of everyone.. 

one thing I’ve noticed is drastically changing , and I’ve been watching CC football since 95..   kids are weaker and smaller , and I believe that is from a lack of getting in that weight room and going to work!    
so many programs are struggling nowadays, simply because the parents have scared the coaches .. and it’s politics more than anything….  
a kid can spike his helmet on the field and start a brawl , and parents will stand there and say they better not say anything to my baby …. Smh 

cry baby parents = spoiled lazy kids with chips on their shoulders .  
 

I wish programs could bring back the bootcamp !  Half the kids on teams nowadays wouldn’t last 1 day in the old school bootcamp before 2 a days 

As far as the physiques and the stamina, I can tell you unequivocally that I am 99% positive that is majorly due to diet. I have talked to a few coaches and fans in poorer communities, and they have made it clear to me that even families on welfare can't afford a steady diet of healthy food, because healthy food is more expensive. 

[CreateMyAccount]

2 hours ago, 88YoePride said:

As far as the physiques and the stamina, I can tell you unequivocally that I am 99% positive that is majorly due to diet. I have talked to a few coaches and fans in poorer communities, and they have made it clear to me that even families on welfare can't afford a steady diet of healthy food, because healthy food is more expensive. 

Part of it is definitely the side effects of late stage capitalism, nothing is affordable for the average person. Another part is that things tend to just change over time, values and attitudes do change somewhat over 20-30 years, kids or parents these days have slightly different values and might not want the known health risks associated with football.  football,  

[Gen7Dragon]

A lot of words of wisdom in this thread. I'm seeing a few different view points here. 

The one with the parents being the problem is a good point, but I say it's society in general. Most people, kids and adults, are glued to their phones! There is some form of entertainment to be found 24/7. Which is bad! We aren't meant to be entertained constantly. 

This kind of environment has kids spending less time outside than ever. Therefore, the overall interest in sports is dying down. Most of us in this forum probably grew up playing ball outdoors with siblings, family, or neighbors. Or even by ourselves. I spent many hours throwing a football up to myself pretending to be Drew Pearson catching a pass from Roger Staubach and later on shooting 3 pointers pretending to be Larry Bird in the Finals. 

If I wasn't playing sports I was usually fishing or doing some kind of hunting. If tik-tok, Instagram, or Fort Nite was around I might not have been outdoors as much? 

I probably would have still been a sports/outdoors type person, and there are still a lot of them today, but we are losing kids that might be on the fence. If the technology wasn't available more of them would get outside. 

That is just a summary of how I perceive these things. There is more. 

I also have some long thought out theories about the decline of small town sports in general. 

I can tie all of my theories together and heap a whole lot of blame onto the standardized testing that has CONSUMED our education system! Which is causing us to lose good teachers and coaches in droves. It's actually getting really bad! It's crisis mode! 

I've recently became familiar with the private school scene and it is EXPLODING!! People are leaving the madness in mass numbers and either going private or to bigger more established schools with way more resources. 

I come from a family of teachers and coaches and I can promise you that the general overall consensus among experienced teachers is that they are fed up with the standardized testing, and the curriculum that is geared toward it. 

I bet everybody reading this knows a teacher or two that will agree with me, and it's a good chance you know one or several that have retired early. 

I know most all parents are fed up with the standardized testing. There is a sizeable resistance that is growing, but it needs to grow faster. Our politicians need to be debating solutions for our education problems just as vehemently as they do the economy or Roe vs. Wade or LGBTQ matters.

We are getting behind in education and our overall system is in major decline! The biggest reason is Greed and money! A LOT of money is made off of the system that generates the curriculum for the standardized testing. 

All states have one but the STARR test in Texas is killing (or has killed) our schools as we once knew them.