New Antler Restriction Discussion

[Medman7]

Just curious how everyone feels about the new restriction. So far, I have seen better deer. It looks like it will probably take another year or two to see the full benefits from it though. So far, so good from the places that I have seen deer this year. I have been reading and trying to keep up with the TPWD info on it and have read in some newspaper articles that they may be expanding the restriction over the next few years. They say that they may even include some of the counties that are already 2 buck counties. It looks like they will deffinitely include the rest of the counties that are still 1 buck counties.

[bigdawg16]

We have seen several bucks this year that will meet the new specs easily. A lot of it has to do with the rain we had early in the spring/summer...the deer have had no problems with food this year.

[Five0pd310]

We have seen several bucks this year that will meet the new specs easily. A lot of it has to do with the rain we had early in the spring/summer...the deer have had no problems with food this year.

 

 

I read an article in American Hunter about the antler restriction practice. They said that better antler growth is actually an unintended side effect of the practice. They said that the antler restriction was originally intended to get more people to shoot does. Unfortunately on my lease, the old timers refuse to acknowledge that killing female deer is part of a good management practice, so we continue to be flooded by 100 lb does trampling all the food sources. Not to mention that the director of the lease keeps us on LAMPS status so regular members are only allowed to take 1 doe. Guests are out of luck.

 

I have a question:

 

Do any of y'all plan on taking a spike in this management practice? You could take two of them if you desired.

[BIG-DADDY]

I read an article in American Hunter about the antler restriction practice. They said that better antler growth is actually an unintended side effect of the practice. They said that the antler restriction was originally intended to get more people to shoot does. Unfortunately on my lease, the old timers refuse to acknowledge that killing female deer is part of a good management practice, so we continue to be flooded by 100 lb does trampling all the food sources. Not to mention that the director of the lease keeps us on LAMPS status so regular members are only allowed to take 1 doe. Guests are out of luck.

 

I have a question:

 

Do any of y'all plan on taking a spike in this management practice? You could take two of them if you desired.

 

 

No, I save them for the kids!

[bigdawg16]

I have not seen any spikes so far on our place which is weird..as far as does go..we are on the LAMPS(?) program and have like 20 doe permits. I plan on taking one this year

[Medman7]

I traditionally let the spikes walk. I will be taking some people hunting this year for their first deer and let them take the spikes if they come out. Now if it starts to get late in the season and I do not see a shooter then I will gladly take a spike for the meat. As far as the does go, we do not seek a tremendous number where we hunt so I usually do not kill any on my local lease. I do however go to West Texas for a cull hunt each year in December and will fill the freezer with does from out there.

[BluePirate]

...I do however go to West Texas for a cull hunt each year in December and will fill the freezer with does from out there.

 

How about taking me and Bleeds with you!

[Medman7]

If we could have gotten together a little earlier this year then I probably could have gotten you in. They are fully booked now. Get with me around May next year and maybe things will work out.

[BluePirate]

Sounds good.

[cardad]

I think on the 2 kids weekends they should do away with the antler restrictions. The reason for kids weekend is to get them involved in hunting because the number of hunters is in decline- but if a kid has to sit there year after year not getting to shoot a buck they will get bored and not want to go.

[Medman7]

Personally I think that sounds good because that is what that weekend was designed for. Other than that, I do not think that there should be any other early seasons allowed unless it is in a managed high fence. Some of the clubs that still havew free ranging deer and start gun season in mid to early October end up killing some of the good bucks that you want to bread the does. Some of the leases that do this in this area have had a loss of good genetics from the native deer. They are struggling most of the time with either no width to the buck's spread or they have huge spreads with skinny pencil horns. So far this is a problem with nearly every lease that I have seen that starts their seasons early. Some of them have now started bringing in tagged does from South Texas to see if they can improve their genetics.

[YellowjacketBacker]

Personally I think that sounds good because that is what that weekend was designed for. Other than that, I do not think that there should be any other early seasons allowed unless it is in a managed high fence. Some of the clubs that still havew free ranging deer and start gun season in mid to early October end up killing some of the good bucks that you want to bread the does. Some of the leases that do this in this area have had a loss of good genetics from the native deer. They are struggling most of the time with either no width to the buck's spread or they have huge spreads with skinny pencil horns. So far this is a problem with nearly every lease that I have seen that starts their seasons early. Some of them have now started bringing in tagged does from South Texas to see if they can improve their genetics.

 

I wasn't aware of the restrictions on antlers until I found this forum (it was hiding at the bottom of the forum list). I haven't hunted since 02-03 when I was stationed in Texas. During that time period and one other three year period I was stationed in Texas, I shared a lease with my uncle and cousin just south of Alto on what I believe is/was paper company land. We (as a group) would get one good sized buck off that 220+ acre lease each year (except one year when it was extremely warm for what seemed like the whole season). Used to see plenty of doe and spikes (I used to write down every deer I saw on the inside of my ground blind; movement and location) plus we got plenty of pictures with the camera at night. If I recall, plenty of pork running around too. Yea, those were the days. Used to take that first week off of work every year I was down there - just enjoyed the heck out of deer camp each year.

 

Sorry, I didn't lend too much to this topic, just reminiscing a tad. Thanks for letting me butt in.

 

[Medman7]

I can legitimately say that right now I have not seen an increase in the numbers of deer thus far. Maybe another year or two will tell the fate of theses new laws. You can still go several days without seeing any deer at all on several leases aroud here. I think that the primary problem is that several years ago when they opened up the seasons and allowed everyone to kill 4 deer that this area still hasn't fully recovered from that. May people took that opportunity to slaughter every deer they saw. You combine that with constantly changing habitat and it has made things difficult for them to rebound. Add the early season from the half way decent leases that are not high fenced and you really make the, struggle. I think that the number studies are being done on lands with good populations of deer and the lesser populated areas are not being taken into consideration.

 

I now here of kill recomendations being made according to browse surveys. I am not sure what moron though of this but they need to be shot. A piece of land can have all of the available food in the world and not have a single deer on it or passing through but yet according to the food availability a kill ratio is determined. I have seen small areas of land that had enough deer sign that it looked as if it was overpopulated and yet the only deer that were ever seen on that place were 4 does. The same does all over that land being seen by many different people. But just walking around looking at the food and tracks you would have thought there to be an army of deer there. Bottom line is that they need to stop these browse surveys and do deer counts like the do in high fences and open range in South and West Texas. Trained or not some of these biologist are making some mistakes and deffinitely do not want to admit it.

[Five0pd310]

I really don't feel that the problem is deer population. Where I work I can show you every night deer herded up and grazing like cattle. Inside the city and out. The deer are here and they have been getting increasingly smaller in size. That is a prima facie sign of over-population. Also, I'm tired of working accidents from all the deer running around the roads.

[Medman7]

In some areas that is deffinitely true. It is deffinitely not the fact for all areas. My primary point about the numbers is the fact that just because one area has good numbers that does not mean that everyone does. Should the entire county be put under the same stipulatuions of a couple of good spots. This is the kind of thing that led to an overkill during a four deer limit some time back in this area. When I started researching their justifications for kill ratios and season changes is when I found out the basis for some of these numbers had nothing to do with actual deer counts. I found that very insufficient. In several areas I have heard this problem complained about a lot because the True hunters know that they are being told to kill more numbers than they are seeing on some of their leases.

 

You probably full well know in your businees that categorizing areas according to appearances can get you into trouble quick. You have to base your info according to facts instead of just how things appear. Same difference here. Count them up and make sure you have the numbers before you thin them too heavily.

 

As far as the size fo the deer go, they are also saying that the quality of the availble food is poor is areas even though there may be an abundance of it. There is also problems with competition for food due to the overpopulation of the hogs. I have personally been in a couple of areas that the deer were eating the leaves and bark off of trees because everything that the hogs could reach was gone and the deer were having to move onto lower quality food items.

[turkeyquack]

Just curious how everyone feels about the new restriction. So far, I have seen better deer. It looks like it will probably take another year or two to see the full benefits from it though. So far, so good from the places that I have seen deer this year. I have been reading and trying to keep up with the TPWD info on it and have read in some newspaper articles that they may be expanding the restriction over the next few years. They say that they may even include some of the counties that are already 2 buck counties. It looks like they will deffinitely include the rest of the counties that are still 1 buck counties.

 

The purpose of the restictions as I understand it is not to have more Deer but to increase they age structure of herd The research has shown the average age of bucks killed was 1 1/2 years old before restrictions. the southern counties where these restrictions have been a while this is changing. We hunt in cherokee county in the past if you didnot shoot that first buck you saw your neighbor would . It is nice to see a little more mature deer this year. I feel it will just get better.

[Medman7]

You are very right in your statements. The numbers issue really does not have any tie to the restriction. That really should be another thread. I do however think that the early seasons have a direct tie to the maturity of the deer.. It is not good to start killing your mature bucks before they have a chance to breed you does. Provides more of a chance for the immature bucks to breed the does.

[Five0pd310]

I saw something strange while out hunting Sunday morning. I saw a pretty little 4 point rack with a nice spread that you would expect to see on at least a 2 1/2 year old buck (from my experience, anyway). However, this deer was tiny. It wasn't tiny in build. He was a pretty thick little buck but he was the heigth and length a of a run of the mill, yearling doe. That got me to thinking. Was this deer actually a yearling with unbelievable genetics, or was it really a 2 or 2 1/2 year old buck with some sort of dwarfism that doesn't affect the antlers?

 

What would be the most likely case in y'alls opinion?

 

And before you ask, no, I wasn't mistaken on its size because of distance or anything. It was no more than 30 yards away from me and at one point was standing beside a stump that put the deer into perfect context with its surroundings.

[Medman7]

What features were you using to determine the age? Couls be a number of things. Genetics is a possibility. A lot of deer have been moved in over the past 20 years to rebuild the polulation. You know that central and west texas deer traditionally have small bodies with good racks. I tell you something else strange is that over the past four years in the counties surrounding us there have been more yearlings that still have spots and yet have little hardened spikes and there have also been more does with antlers being killed. This past week in the Sunday paper there was a picture of a doe that was killed that had velvet nubbs almost 2 inches long. There is something strange in the water. I have seen pictures of several bucks from Sabine and Trinity counties that are young and nontypical. A lot of panned out racks with multipe points. I am talking that after the brow tines it just turns into a glob of little 1 inch kickers.

[Five0pd310]

What features were you using to determine the age?

 

Nothing just its size. It's what I have come accostomed to seeing in a yearling. He didn't give me the chance to examine his teeth. lol.

[Medman7]

You can use the triangulation method accordintg to the shape of their head. Picture a triangle that runs from their ears to the to the lower jaw and out to the nose. If the triangle is more oblong from the ears out to the nose then it is generally considered a young deer. As the deer age the length from the ears to the nose generally gets shorter indicating they are older. It takes a little practice but is pretty effective. It is pretty easy to find information on this type of feild aging. This is one of a few ways to feild age deer without looking at thier teeth. The teeth are used for a more deffinitive aging but is not the only visual tool available to use.